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[Pre-Production] White Lion

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dansari
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[Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#1 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 pm

Foreword

Below you will find our presentation on the White Lion changes we have been discussing for several weeks. We have utilized a group of White Lion perspectives in our preliminary discussion, including Chrizx, Confused, and Roanbrior. For those of you who played through the Azareal changes, you will note some similarities here. The ultimate purpose of this Guardian re-work is to give White Lions a viable warband build, granting them specific niches that order warbands need, without gutting their 6man builds (and less importantly, though in perspective, making sure they can still solo since we recognize players, potentially even a silent majority, enjoy soloing with the class); simultaneously, we aim to thematically align their trees to more closely resemble the makeup of Marauder trees (because the Marauder trees are built well).

In this topic, we are showing you a pre-production draft of the changes we’ve discussed internally among the think tank and the balance group. The damage numbers on abilities are tentative in nature, which means that while the bones of what we present to you here is less likely to change, we will monitor cooldowns and durations of abilities, damage output, etc. to ensure viability but not overperformance. We ask that you present one (1) comment providing your feedback to this draft. If you would like to add more feedback, please edit your original comment, don’t make a new one. This topic will serve less as a discussion and more as a feedback-obtaining exercise, thus the balance team will refrain from responding back to your feedback and simply take it down for consideration. Further, we ask that you not quote any comments unless you’re quoting this original post. In your posts, please follow the template listed here: (viewtopic.php?f=78&t=28604). We ask you follow this template so that we can assess your perspective, how much experience you have with the class or its mirror, etc.

To assist you with understanding the below, we have updated the career builder to match these changes.
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... white-lion

New Hunter tree: debuff tree
3: Blindsided (unchanged. Moved to Hunter 3pt from Axeman 3pt)

5: Pounce (unmoved at 5pt Hunter; player cannot Pounce with Trained to Stay active [see Woodsman]).

7: Kurnous' Chosen (new tactic at 7pt Hunter which augments Fey Illusion to grant a wounds debuff for 10s). Value is exact to Marauder Thunderous Blow, i.e. calculation is (rank * 2.5) = wounds value, rounded down where 7pt = 80, 13pt = 95, or 15pt = 100.
Kurnous hunts alongside you, strengthening your Fey Illusion by additionally decreasing your target's Wounds by (rank * 2.5) for 10 seconds.
To more closely align with Marauder, we're granting a Wounds debuff via tactic here. Ultimately, we acknowledge that in a min/max group, you will have a Knight wounds debuff and this is unnecessary; it will however provide viable choice for players who do not have a 2h knight in party.

9: Force Opportunity (unchanged and unmoved at 9pt Hunter)

11: Merciless Blows (new tactic at 11pt Hunter which augments Shattering Blows to increase target’s cast times by .5s). This affects all abilities, even instant casts.
Shattering Blows additionally increases your target's cast times by .5 seconds.
This was a very difficult decision, and one that may be the most controversial of the standard Hunter/Axeman builds. This is an incredibly strong tactic which we will obviously monitor closely once implemented. The main goal for the placement of this tactic is that it has to at least compete in viability with the 11pt Axeman tactic. The tactic currently in this slot is very lackluster.

13: Thin the Herd (moved to 13pt Hunter and unchanged)

15: Joy of the Hunt (unchanged, moved from 15pt Axeman)

Hunter core abilities
- Blindside (unchanged, move from Axeman)

- Hack (unchanged, unmoved)

- Shattering Blows (move from Axeman, duration reduced to 5s and a 10s cooldown added [because of Merciless Blows])

- Cleave Limb (unchanged, move from Guardian)

- Fey Illusion (unchanged, move from Axeman)

- Trained to Hunt (unmoved, Leg Tear (snare) and Shred (armor debuff) from Trained to Threaten added and Bite and Claw Sweep from Trained to Hunt removed). Pet stats unchanged. Leg Tear duration reduced to 5s. Shred duration reduced to 15s and made instead a non-stacking Toughness debuff, scaled with points in tree [(rank * 3) = Toughness debuff value] where 15pt in tree is 120 and 9pt in tree is 102.
Because Hunter already holds an undefendable armor debuff, we thought it repetitive and unnecessary to keep a pet-initiated armor debuff, so we're changing to a Toughness debuff to match the theme of the tree. Additionally, and as a nod to lions who liked to use Trained to Threaten to slow enemies, we're adding the slow from the pet here and adjusting the duration of the snare to 5s.

New Axeman tree: damage tree
3: Lionheart (unchanged and moved from 3pt Hunter)

5: Cull the Weak (unchanged and moved from 9pt Axeman)

7: Pack Synergy (Moved from core tactics. Kept the pet restriction and added an exception if you have Trained to Stay active
You and your pet's critical hits will inflict 50% more damage as long as you have a pet active or are using Trained to Stay.

9: Primal Fury (Moved from 5pt Axeman, remove the back/side restriction)

11: Pack Hunting (Moved from 7pt Hunter, remove the requirement on Trained to Hunt)
Removing the restriction on Trained to Hunt and increasing its placement in tree to reflect that, this should open up player choice a bit more

13: Leonine Frenzy (unchanged, moved from Guardian 13pt)

15: Rampage (unchanged, moved from 15pt Guardian)

Axeman core abilities
- Coordinated Strike (unchanged and moved from Hunter)

- Sundering Chop (unmoved, unchanged)

- Lion’s Fury (unchanged, moved from Hunter)

- Throat Bite (unchanged, moved from Guardian)

- Trained to Kill (unchanged, move from Guardian). Pet stats unchanged. Gut Ripped cooldown reduced to 15s

New Woodsman (former Guardian): aoe tree
3: Deafening Roar (adds spirit damage back to Echoing Roar - matches current Echoing Roar scaling, Echoing Roar is being moved to Core and has its base damage removed)
Echoing Roar will inflict an Ailment which causes X Spirit damage over 15 seconds to all affected enemies.

5: Ethereal Cleave (similar to Marauder Wave of Mutilation), 10s cooldown
You cleave your enemies within 30 feet, dealing (60 + 9 * rank) + (0.4 str) physical damage over 9 seconds. Your targets take a (rank * 2) ability penalty to Initiative and Weaponskill.

7: Spirit Strike (tactic adds a 50% bypass to all Woodsman abilities)
While using Trained to Stay, all of your Woodsman abilities bypass 50% of your opponent's Spirit resistance.
We think previous WL iteration was OK but not quite as potent as it should have been. We're mirroring the 50% bypass available to warband Marauder here to reflect that.

9: Echoing Challenge (mirror Marauder Concussive Jolt. Trained to Stay must be active to be able to use)
You deliver a fierce challenge to your enemies, knocking down all targets 25 feet in front of you for 2 seconds and inflicting 113 damage. [This ability can only be used while in Trained to Stay.]
Bringing back the aoe knockdown that Order has been missing. You cannot Pounce and use this ability because we want to avoid what is effectively a 65ft ranged aoe knockdown.

11: Hack Them Down (mirror Marauder Crushing Blows)
While using Trained to Stay, all of your Woodsman abilities have a 25% chance to remove 225 points of Morale from the enemy.
Now that WL will get its morale drain back we may remove morale drains from other Order classes, though Morales are a whole discussion in and of themselves that we will tackle later.

13: Whirling Axe (unchanged, moved from 13pt Hunter)

15: Blade and Claw (moved from 15pt Hunter, change to 1800 damage 30ft around player)

Woodsman Core abilities
- Slashing Blade (mirror to Demolition by reducing AP cost, moved from Hunter)

- Baiting Strike (unmoved, unchanged)

- Pack Assault (unmoved, unchanged)

- Echoing Roar (move from 5pt Guardian, remove tooltip damage, change to 40ft cone aoe)
You unleash a blasting shout, interrupting enemies 40 feet in front of you.
Mirrors Marauder's range here and removes the reference to having a pet.

- Trained to Stay. Converts all Woodsman abilities to Spirit. Pet is not allowed to be summoned. Player gains 25% increased damage which does not stack with Loner, player cannot Pounce with Trained to Stay active.
You train your pet to stay and protect Chrace while you do battle. You deal 25% more damage since your War Lion cannot be called forth and all of your Woodsman abilities convert to Spirit damage. You cannot Pounce with Trained to Stay active and its effects do not stack with Loner.
Instead of making Loner a renown tactic, we're building it directly into the Training and removing the pet, as well as converting abilities to Spirit damage all at once. The drawback for this is you cannot Pounce.


Miscellaneous
- All Trainings given a 5s cast time (castable on the move) and cost 100AP.

- New core tactic, Relentless Assault, which mirrors Marauder's Subvert Strength (40 AP on crit, 3s icd)
Any time you critically hit an enemy, you will regain 40 Action Points. Tactic cannot trigger more than once every 3 seconds.

- New core tactic, Wild Slashing, which mirrors Marauder's Widespread Demolition
Increases Slashing Blade's radius to 30 feet.

** There may be some issues with how this appears in the Career Builder. This post serves as the proposal, not the Builder.
** The timing for this depends on when the developers can implement. I do not have any semblance of a delivery date on this yet.

Spirit Strikes Math: This is with both classes having 1050 STR, SC weapons, and the ability formulas that are already present on both classes. 22% genesis spirit resistance after buffs/debuffs. 34% Beastlord + Winds Impervious

Slashing Blade 495 spirit damage (With TTS)
Whirling Axe 192 * 7 spirit damage (With TTS)
= 11-17% mitigation

Mara Demolition 452 physical damage
Wrecking Ball 347 * 7 physical damage
Mara ~77% armor pen w/ tactic
= 10%, 16%, 23% mitigations (light, med, heavy)

Tearing Blade tactic adds physical damage, and refreshes itself so you usually gain little from it when spamming slashing blade in AoE.
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Xergon
Posts: 571

Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#2 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:35 am

Spoiler:
dansari wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 pm
Foreword
7: Spirit Strike (tactic adds a 50% bypass to all Woodsman abilities)
While using Trained to Stay, all of your Woodsman abilities bypass 50% of your opponent's Spirit resistance.
We think previous WL iteration was OK but not quite as potent as it should have been. We're mirroring the 50% bypass available to warband Marauder here to reflect that.

Spirit bombs incoming...

dansari wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 pm
11: Hack Them Down (mirror Marauder Crushing Blows)
While using Trained to Stay, all of your Woodsman abilities have a 25% chance to remove 225 points of Morale from the enemy.
Now that WL will get its morale drain back we may remove morale drains from other Order classes, though Morales are a whole discussion in and of themselves that we will tackle later.

RIP WH morale drain...

Overall, brb...day has come... rolling WL...
Does not follow format for feedback posts. Feel free to edit and remove my spoilers when done - Dan
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Smellybelly
Posts: 299

Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#3 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:21 am

Spoiler:
Just a comparing thought, Marauder 50% armor ignore (however good) is vastly surpassed by a 50% spirit ignore. You can stack armor to godly levels, cutting that in half can still mean high armor values. Cutting a already (mostly by knights and SM) debuffed spirit value by half will mean almost no defence at all against a WL spamming aoe attacks.
That will be quite the difference overall.
Does not follow format for feedback posts. Feel free to edit and remove my spoilers when done - Dan

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OgiWanBG
Posts: 85

Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#4 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:26 am

1. Do you play the class in question?

Yes, its my main/was my main

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

Yes

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

played solo, 6man - 90% of the time 6man

4. Your feedback
I mostly liked the "OP Guardian" WL - as everyone called it, tough it was strong , but not OP.
IMO I dont think that WL should be mirrored to Mara. The class has some beauty in it been different from Mara-its also the class weakness itself.
The AoE tree looks good but dont like loosing pet. Its the soul of the class-you lose pull, silence, KD.
As I was wrote dont think we should have 2 tactics for "increasing enemies cast times".
Dont understand the idea of the Echoing Roar skill and tactic, does it not damages the targets without tactic or it just adds spirit dmg ?
All stances should generate some benefits as before -Tou, Str, Wounds, Crit ets ,ets
I think that more detailed analysis will be provided when we can play WL and see the changes on action.
Last edited by OgiWanBG on Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Optimuss - WL - rr52
Ogimir - SW - rr50

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lefze
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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#5 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:33 am

Spoiler:
OgiWanBG wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:26 am
Constructive question: why would I take Merciless Blows when I can take Blindsided ? It's a bit the same to me.
One is flat, the other is a %. The flat one affects even instacasts, but gets progressively worse the higher the cast time is. Meaning it also works against melee skills.

Smellybelly wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:21 am
Just a comparing thought, Marauder 50% armor ignore (however good) is vastly surpassed by a 50% spirit ignore. You can stack armor to godly levels, cutting that in half can still mean high armor values. Cutting a already (mostly by knights and SM) debuffed spirit value by half will mean almost no defence at all against a WL spamming aoe attacks.
That will be quite the difference overall.
Mara also gets about 25% armor bypass for free from weapon skill, which is added on top. Destro warbands will always have zealots debuffing armor aswell, if the yare even halfway trying. Keep in mind the tree is purely meant as a warband spec.

Though there is no doubt WL damage numbers are gonna be higher than mara numbers, which is due to a lack of certain defensive tools, utility tools and even AoE specs mara has.
Let's refrain from having a discussion - Dan
Last edited by lefze on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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OgiWanBG
Posts: 85

Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#6 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:36 am

Spoiler:
lefze wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:33 am
OgiWanBG wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:26 am
Constructive question: why would I take Merciless Blows when I can take Blindsided ? It's a bit the same to me.
One is flat, the other is a %. The flat one affects even instacasts, but gets progressively worse the higher the cast time is. Meaning it also works against melee skills.
But should we get 2 tactics with debuffing enemies cast times ?
Let's refrain from having a discussion - Dan
Optimuss - WL - rr52
Ogimir - SW - rr50

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lefze
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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#7 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:39 am

Spoiler:
OgiWanBG wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:36 am
lefze wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:33 am
OgiWanBG wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:26 am
Constructive question: why would I take Merciless Blows when I can take Blindsided ? It's a bit the same to me.
One is flat, the other is a %. The flat one affects even instacasts, but gets progressively worse the higher the cast time is. Meaning it also works against melee skills.
But should we get 2 tactics with debuffing enemies cast times ?
Choice, take one of them, take two of them, take none of them. Both are potent in their own ways, especially the flat one.
Let's refrain from having a discussion - Dan
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OgiWanBG
Posts: 85

Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#8 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:45 am

Spoiler:
lefze wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:39 am
OgiWanBG wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:36 am
lefze wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:33 am


One is flat, the other is a %. The flat one affects even instacasts, but gets progressively worse the higher the cast time is. Meaning it also works against melee skills.
But should we get 2 tactics with debuffing enemies cast times ?
Choice, take one of them, take two of them, take none of them. Both are potent in their own ways, especially the flat one.
I mean why we should have 2 of these tactics when we have 1 debuff cast and something other.
Let's refrain from having a discussion - Dan
Optimuss - WL - rr52
Ogimir - SW - rr50

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Smellybelly
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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#9 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:46 am

Spoiler:
Once in live added cast time on instant abilities were almost meta (at the very start of the game) so everything you used, was delayed, you used a instant melee and it got a cast time slowing down the entire battle and it was horribly horribly super boring. I cannot state this clear enough, IT WAS HORRIBLY BORING.

For the love of everything that makes this game great, do not add that piece of vermin bollocks to our rvr. I know some abilites already work like that ingame but they are barely used, i pray it never will become popular again.

It completely destroyed all battles, even scenarios.
Does not follow format for feedback posts. Feel free to edit and remove my spoilers when done. Feedback received on Merciless Blows - Dan

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Xergon
Posts: 571

Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#10 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:55 am

Spoiler:
dansari wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 pm
9: Echoing Challenge (mirror Marauder Concussive Jolt. Trained to Stay must be active to be able to use)
You deliver a fierce challenge to your enemies, knocking down all targets 25 feet in front of you for 2 seconds and inflicting 113 damage. [This ability can only be used while in Trained to Stay.]
Bringing back the aoe knockdown that Order has been missing. You cannot Pounce and use this ability because we want to avoid what is effectively a 65ft ranged aoe knockdown.

Why WL 2s when Mara is 3s ?
Last edited by Xergon on Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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