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[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.
Aleteh
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#61 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:42 pm

Tesq wrote:@boog

- if Crimsons death dmg is a problem it can simply be adjsuted this is a trivial matter; [/u]

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#62 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:10 pm

Untill avodiance is not fixed for 2h ; Orvr BG will suck forever....
This is literally an issue for all 2h tanks though, except maybe SM due to Wall of Darting Steel. And even for them, it's undoubtedly rougher than it is for SnB SM. Lack of block and Hold the Line means 2h tanks all get rekt by rdps, to some extent. It's part of the trade-off, and why most 2h tanks stick to small-scale or roaming, rather than warbands.
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boog
Posts: 343

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#63 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:20 pm

Spoiler:
Tesq wrote:@boog

-my elite training work on 4 attacks as wrote on the buff/debuff ui....not 6....
-no one want FoF to give -45% (so 10% -45%=-35% -->i want your chance to be crit + enemy chance to crit :100 x65)

let's say bw have 80% crit you, you have 10 % ; this si a 90%
90% :100 x 65=0.90x65= 58.5% crit chance

if enemy have 10 and you have 10 ; total of 20% then:
20:100 x65= 13% chance to be crit

you see ; no flat -45%; skill reduce better the crit the more it get stack; since crit have a scaling efficency the more you stack is only natural an anti crit keep this in mind, this is how a proportional reduction must work .

-2h kd is not in the correct spot, all tank have it on mid mastery requried to be spec and only IB/BG require s+b KD
-Ib/BG loyaut are not the same : snare is in a different spot, the left mastery is hybrid aoe/st support+dps , IB isnt; is st
-sy but all bg i know go around with both avoidance tactic with out is a suicide, or they are deliberately going paper on purpose, if you go 2h and yes why dodge should be out? 2/3 order rdps are physic....if you use hold the line you get both dodge and disrupt.... Look at renown why do you think dodge/disrupt are togheter because parry protect vs all melee attack and there should only be 1 stuff for all ranged attack.
So ye either 30% dodge should also make his way.


30% chance vs melee and rdps attack is not that much + dont stack with hold the line (let's add renown ) for 40 points you have all 48% do you think this is broken? most of s+b tank can get higer, 2h SM is ever more cool

2h have 30/30/30
s+b will have 30/45/45 with hold the line

this is all perfectly fine and in line with SM wall of darting steel--> (active 50% vs passive 25% +5% due hate managementup/down)

- if Crimsons death dmg is a problem it can simply be adjsuted this is a trivial matter; the good part is the debuff not the dmg ; who **** cares to do aoe dmg and loose 30 hate in Orvr?--> drop hate mean drop avoidance all balance itself is all a BIG TRADE.
What i care is see BG as a workign debuff tank

Untill avodiance is not fixed for 2h ; Orvr BG will suck forever....
@Tesq
Spoiler:
Elite training working on 6 or 4 attacks wasn't the point of my dispute with your changes to it.

Thank you for the clarification on FoF but i don't see why it is necessary. It tips the scale WAY in BG and DP's favor in terms of crit chance reduction where they way it works now is perfectly fine and fulfills its role just fine especially considering it lasts 10 seconds and has a 20 sec CD only leaving 10 seconds of downtime which can easily be filled up by using Elite Training and the bubble. Not to mention the tactic stacking and debuffs BG can already give against its target.

2h KD is in the correct spot in comparison to its mirror IB, both have 2h KD in left mastery tree.

The phrase exact same layout was meant in correlation to location of 2h KD in the mastery trees. Sorry for the confusion.

AoE snare being in different locations on the mastery tree does not mean they are not in the tree's that serve the most group utility, which comparatively the IB right mastery tree is more group orientated and the BG middle tree is more group orientated.

Disrupt dodge only go together in the renown tree does not mean they go hand in hand, that is why Willpower effects disrupt and initiative effects dodge. If they were meant to go hand in hand wouldn't it make sense that the stat that increases their % would be correlated to the same stat instead of two different ones? The only similarity they share is that they deal with ranged damage, parry is pure physical, and block is all.

All of your proposed changes to allow for only a tactic to allow a free 30% dodge/parry/disrupt plus on top of that the natural % increase given from stats, then % increases from gear, then % increases from renown, and then buffs from both the BG and other classes and next thing you know BG will literally be able to avoid DMG from all types.

At RR60 a BG could max out all defensive renown trees and get an additional 18% parry, 18% dodge/disrupt, and 10% block (which would be useless) which would put their base value for parry and dodge/disrupt at 90 + Hate (which is so easy to maintain) that they would have a flat 48% parry/dodge/disrupt. Also don't forget Brutal Smash increases their willpower by (if you have BA) 456 which easily gives another 3-5% disrupt so you are looking at a nearly flat 51% disrupt at all times because BS lasts 20 seconds with a 5 second CD and then assume they are SnB another free 45% so now the BG has 96% disrupt/dodge chance, couple that with Endless Pursuit and they can keep Hold The Line up against casters without draining their own AP, get a speed boost, and still wreck face. (Also fun fact as it stands right now 5pc BL set bonus is 5% disrupt so boom (101% disrupt right there just with some easy gear stacking).

I talk about all that can be down to show with disrupt to show that the BG truly has a hard time with and that is ranged DPS like Engi and SW, because they dont have a means to increase dodge and you want to through that into the mix? I already have an easy enough time on my BG hacking down unguarded targets SnB allowing that for 2h would be disastrous.

SM and BG are not mirrors (I know that no class is a perfect mirror of each other) but you cant just say one class should have it because another class has the same thing and it works, because while they are tanks they are a COMPLETELY different type of tank and play entirely different, even from BO.

Scaling the DMG so it can be spammable is unnecessary with how it currently works though. 5 second debuff for a 10 second CD is fine there is no need to make it spammable I dont see the necessity to make that change to Crimson Death. Would it be cool? Sure! But what purpose does it serve? it is already an AoE 5 second debuff that when coupled with the BGs Filled with Fury and Spammable Monsterous Rend practically guarantees a 120 wounds debuff on everyone effected. Hell you don't even need Filled with Fury with the right gear.
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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#64 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:29 pm

@boog: pretty sure all avoidance is capped at 75%. Could be wrong though. Also, the disrupt you get from WP is "soft" disrupt, meaning it gets pierced by the stacking of Int, which all sorcs/magi will have soft-capped, and so it's relatively meaningless.

Also, pretty sure Crimson Death got buffed to 10s duration on the buff, so it's 100% uptime. With BG+Mara running Deeply Impaled+lucky ini stat steal from Blorc, Destro actually has really good crit stacking potential (potentially better than Order?). That change might have been reverted though.
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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#65 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:07 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
Spoiler:
GodlessCrom wrote:
Untill avodiance is not fixed for 2h ; Orvr BG will suck forever....
This is literally an issue for all 2h tanks though, except maybe SM due to Wall of Darting Steel. And even for them, it's undoubtedly rougher than it is for SnB SM. Lack of block and Hold the Line means 2h tanks all get rekt by rdps, to some extent. It's part of the trade-off, and why most 2h tanks stick to small-scale or roaming, rather than warbands.
Image

Its not an issue, its not a concern and it has no bearing on the topic at hand because this isnt about everything blackguard, its for feedback on currently implemented changes and this has gone way off topic and people are not to be arguing against each other nor making up random stuff for abilities to do.

Gerv laid this out pretty clearly in the OP
Understood.
Spoiler:
Please gib to Ironbreaker too! /salivate
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#66 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:45 pm

Torquemadra wrote: Its not an issue, its not a concern and it has no bearing on the topic at hand because this isnt about everything blackguard, its for feedback on currently implemented changes and this has gone way off topic and people are not to be arguing against each other nor making up random stuff for abilities to do.

Gerv laid this out pretty clearly in the OP
I feel as if some of us have been trying to stick to what has been asked... and its completely been skipped over. For instance, my post, along with Marsares, focused almost all our feedback on the implemented changes.. with maybe 1 or 2 added pieces...

MINE:
Spoiler:
th3gatekeeper wrote:
I do, however, see some areas that are lack luster when looking at BG builds and options. So here are my thoughts on what could be improved:

1) Hastened Doom (tactic): Everytime I respec 2H, I just cant bring myself to use this. BG is VERY tactic heavy already, basically NEEDING to use Filled with Fury as mandatory. Due to using a 2H I feel forced to also use Rugged. For guard mitigation, I feel forced to use Anger Drives me. Which gives me ONE tactic slot open. Due to the "Hate Hungry" feeling of BG, I have been toying with tactics such as Thirst for Death or Simmering Anger, or even Efficient Slaughter... I feel that without these Hate generating tactics, my BG is VERY hate starved... Or, because we ARE squishy... Ive have been toying with tactics such as Terrifying Foe or Malek's Bulwark... We have SO many good options (which is GOOD!) but because of the high competition here, Hastened Doom is not worth the slot...

Point being. I cant justify spending one of my precious tactic slots on a wounds debuff that I cannot reliably proc early in fights - since its off a crit, which we need Crimson Death (hate cost) + Spending hate to generate (Filled with Fury) to get our crit up TO crit... This often requires substantial build up time, meaning our target often has >1k health missing anyways, so a wounds debuff has its purpose defeated a little...

THEN, having to use 1 of 2 abilities that are deeper in my "rotation" to generate AA haste (P.S. or M.W.) COMBINED with the fact that you lose AA while using Enraged Beating (our main source of hate generation besides our DP taking damage) all this creates a very poor "synergy" where its just not worth the cost.

Hastened Doom Solution: Swap the effects. This tactic COULD be worth while IF
- The 120 Wounds debuff came from Murderous Wrath and Pitless Strike. Because it could be used at the beginning of the fight. The downside to this, is that is loses its AoE ability, so I would look at swapping Pitless Strike here with Monstrous Rending. So this allows you to use M.W. at the BEGINNING of a fight (AP cost not hate) to proc a S.T. Wounds debuff... However once you get Hate up, you can use an AoE via Monstro Rending. THEN...
- The 50% AA increase came from Crits.

Now THIS creates a nice Synergy of tactics. You use Wounds debuff beginning of fights, then you get C.D. Going as well as Filled with Fury, to give you crits which increase your AA speed.

This would be a "worth considering" tactic for me. Currently our tactics are FAR too valuable, and the clunkiness of this just doesnt warrant a tactic slot IMO.

2) Elite Training (Ability): Going SNB, this really only helps in PVE. The fact that it applies to your DP is great, but I honestly dont even notice when I use this on my DP because its eaten up SOOO quickly. Its a great PVE tool against NPCs that dont attack fast, but in RVR, this is gone in less than the GCD it takes to apply it.. In SCs, it lasts SLIGHTLY longer but the short "impact" combined with long CD - leaves MUCH to be desired here...

Elite Training Solution: Consider making this more of a buff for X seconds, rather than only "4 attacks". Possibly... Something like "For the next 4 seconds, you will easily Parry (and disrupt) attacks made against you. Also applies to your DP". Now this provides a valuable buff worthy of a 30 second CD and high Mastery cost. This will actually make this less impactful to PVE, it will likely be ~ the same in SCs, but where this REALLY helps is in RVR when someone is getting NUKED. YOu can toss Shield of Rage AND Elite Training on them, to greatly alleviate damage. Shield of Rage has "scaling" issues in RVR but any better than it is, and it would be OP I think. So E.T. would be a great RVR tool for SnB tanks.

3) Force of Fury, None Shall Pass and Wave of Scorn: I combined these because of them being in the same tree. FOF is lack luster because of it only reducing crit chance by a few % AND the armor buff is redundant to pots and other buffs...
Wave of Scorn is good, however the high CD and high AP cost, just make it feel so lack luster... Ive tried multiple builds with this and when I use it, I am AP starved and its a BIG CD...
None Shall Pass - IDK... Its a great solo defensive tool, but no group benefits. It generates hate (not something SNB needs) and its only a solo-selfish buff to make you tankier (something BG doesnt really need). It just doesnt scream "capstone worthy" to me...

Force of Fury, None Shall Pass and Wave of Scorn SOLUTIONS:
- FOF. I really liked THIS as the capstone and it brought back to its additive glory (lol). In reality... It makes your chance to be crit go to 0%... So it means any crit you take - relies heavily on the opponents crit % (which can still be considerable!) so I dont think it was OP this way, especially if it were a capstone... It applying to your DP really gave BGs a nice "Umf" they needed to spec ALL the way up the tree.

- The OTHER FOF option could be too look at mimicing Knights "Vigilance" a bit... or something mixed with Chosen's Oppression... You could replace the armor buff with a flat 15% less damage, and then keep FOF Crit % as a multiplicative. This would provide ~7-8% less chance to be crit AND 15% less damage. Which now makes this a more desired ability (if you didnt want to make it 45% additive)

- None Shall Pass. I really think this one should be tier 2 ability. Its not as good (imo) as "Cant hit me" (I know its pros and cons here but I still think its not as good) so putting it at tier 2. SnB doesnt have hate issues IMO, so the hate generation is MEH to me but a nice 50% block tactic... Can be used as an "oh ****" button, warrants a Mastery point but is in no way a "Capstone" ability to me... If it stays here, I cant see anyone speccing FULL Loathing to get this but I CAN see someone going all the way up the tree to get an improved FOF and then grabbing this along the way as well.

- Wave of Scorn. This (to me) should be a tier 1 ability and available to any BG who specs into this (2H or SnB builds which right now 2H doesnt really get this due to it basically requiring RR60+ to get because you need CD, which is high in Malice). Also, I REALLY think the AP cost should be dropped to 25-30 AP. 55 is just too much. Even IB's mirror ability costs 25 AP as tier 2 ability, and the CD is 20 seconds and damage scales with grudges... So it stands to reason a "tier 1" version wouldnt be AS good... So I really think the BG's base of 284 damage vs IB's max grudge 445 is fair... Then a 30 sec CD versus a 20 sec CD is fair... But ONTOP of this... having 2x the AP cost... Its just not as useful.... SO I advocate for a 30 AP cost (higher than IBs), 284 damage (less than IBs max) and 30 sec CD (10 sec more than IB) is fair for a tier 1 - reliably used by both Malice builds, Anguish builds, and ofc Loathing builds....



My FINAL "2 cents" would be looking at Filled with Fury... This would be the controversial piece. IMO the 5 second buff is clunky. Id rather take 10% crit with 10 second uptime than 15% crit with 5 sec uptime. The reason is, you use 1 GCD to get the buff (say CD) and then likely use Enraged Beating to generate hate (30 of it you just spent on CD to get crit up) and now you just used up basically the entire duration of the buff. It just feels like your constantly in this mode of "spend hate, enraged beating, spend hate, etc" without getting to pepper in some other fun stuff in rotation... I think making Filled with Fury 15% for 10 seconds is OP... But I think it allows for more FUN play when you get a few more seconds added to that buff to enable you to drop a few other abilities inbetween your never ending Enraged Beating cycle... Especially as 2H (which is who primarily gets this tactic) because of the high cost of CD...


Overall though, I am VERY much enjoying BG with the changes. These are the areas I feel like would make the class Synergize better and not be as "clunky" in rotations and group benefits - both in RVR and SC as well as open up more build options for the class (both SNB and 2H)
@Marsares post:
Spoiler:
Marsares wrote: I've also been exclusively playing my BG the last few weeks and do enjoy most of the changes as it gives more versatility in builds as we're not as much locked into a few useful specs. It allows some more tinkering and experimenting, which is always good.

However, there are some areas that are lacklustre.

Anguish Tree:
1) Make Bolstering Anger apply to its DP given that it's a cap-stone ability. Given that it's 290hp per 3s this feels reasonable as there's a high cost in career points associated to getting here.
2) Consider either upping the value of Shield of Rage somewhat so it becomes more useful in large-scale fights, or perhaps consider repurposing one of the less used tactics (say: Crush Vitality) which allows it to become a group-wide bubble.
3) I have to agree with the3gatekeeper on Elite Training - it just gets eaten up too quickly with AA and fluff AOE. I would support his suggestion to turn it more into a time-duration based buff for parry/disrupt/dodge, akin to Wall of Darting Steel but with shorter duration and without the damage component as it also applies to the DP.

Loathing:
4) I would support th3gatekeepers proposal around turning Force of Fury into an ability akin to the Knight's Vigilance ability by replacing the armour buff with a flat reduction in damage. This may imply that it'll have to become a T3 ability again.
5) I agree with th3gatekeeper that Wave of Scorn should be a Tier 1 ability, as having an AOE snare would provide some more group utility in either a 2-hander or SnB spec. Furthermore, I do agree that the AP cost is excessive and should be lowered.
6) None Shall Pass is my real bug-bear. I love it as an ability and it gives a real "Oh Sh!t" ability to use to buff our survivability - at the cost of nothing being able to be much else. However, it does nothing for the group and the damage is fluff at best. As per my previous post, I would like to see the damage element removed and replace with a group-wide stat buff similar to the Sword Master's Nature's Blade. Shift it to T2 as well.

Malice:
-) I don't really have any suggestions here as I think the tree is in a good place after the recent changes.

Additional Thoughts:
The meta for WB play is really around morale-building and dumping in a synchronised fashion. Destro lacks any meaningful AOE morale stripping abilities. Give the BG a M4 akin to the Knight's Solar Flare as neither the Chosen/BO has it and it would become the unique selling point to get at least one BG in a WB.

I believe that the abovementioned changes will help to solidify the role of a BG as a value-adding body-guard and thus make it stand out from other tanks in small-scale, whilst providing it with a more sought after role in WB's (either 2-hander or SnB) by providing it with more group utility (e.g. easier access to Wave of Scorn, group stat buff through None Shall Pass if SnB, an an AOE morale strip).

In general, the class has taken a step forward with the recent changes and although I generally remain the only BG in Phalanx (as I will not reroll) I personally find the class really enjoyable to play. So much that I haven't played any other classes in earnest. It is a case of fine-tuning some abilities now - rather than largescale changes - which will give the BG a sought after role in all types of game-play and thus allow it to compete with a BO/Chosen.
With the FOCUS of our discussion around what you have asked:
- Get Down!
- Path of Loathing (Mastery abilities moved around + tactics)
- Elite Training


With the (what seemed like) conclusions:

- Get Down! (AWESOME!)
- Path of Loathing: (Wave of Scorn should be t1 with reduced cost, NSP should be tier 2, FOF should be T3 but modified...)
- Elite Training: (still lack luster, possibly adjusting it to increase parry% Disrupt % for a few seconds.)

I write this, to ask everyone else to FOCUS ON THE CHANGES rather than trying to rework EVERYTHING. I am guilty of this too. If you want BG to be closed down and NO MORE CHANGES - keep doing what you guys are doing - fighting over the entire class and what you would like... However if you want this to actually go somewhere, try and contribute to the changes and the discussion that some of us have been trying to have...

My overall conclusion is BG is definitely improved, still not quite where it could be with a FEW minor tweaks to what has already been changed... Mainly what I see opportunity for is Path of Loathing... E.T. could use a LITTLE love as well. But! I am THANKFUL that BG even got some love in the first place! So THANK YOU TORQ AND GERV!
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#67 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:16 am

Torquemadra wrote:Deeper changes past what we have are going to wait until client control, this doesnt mean I am ignoring them, just plans laid a little further down the road
So does this mean no more changes, or does this mean evaluation of the current changes and possibly minor tweaks still moving forward?

I guess I am hopeful of my previous posts in this thread... BG QOL has increased - there is no doubt about that it seems... but is it "good enough"? Thats where I feel like its on the edge looking at being viable......

Do 1 last "pass" at Path of Loathing (Scorn t1, NSP tier 2, FOF @ t3 and modified/buffed)... and E.T. modified so brings more to "large scale RVR" - rather than being ANOTHER "small scale tool" that BGs have many of... At MINIMUM those seem to start creating more viability in larger scale battles which is where BG still feels lacking IMO.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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bctakhy
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#68 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:05 am

Spoiler:
The main problem on BG stil the same... why get a BG instead of other tank? none... with 1 BG in WB for use CD is engound. All groups need 1 chosen for buffs and second tank... ppl want other chosen or BO, depend of what DPS u have in group. I think KB on 2h brings BG back to live but still miss any buff for group that make ppl want a BG in group. Bg also no have morale gain tactic and on current state of game, where first in load morale win, have more than 1 BG in WB will make u lack many DPS.

I can sugest changes like give CD a +10 crit buff for group (like kobs buff with tactic) instead the curent chance be crit? Is simple change that opens many ways. A solo BG can stack with current crit tactic for go solo / small scale as DPS or ignore that tactic and go for AoE snare and make the class more use than a guard / CD bot...

Or just give any buff or anything that make it worth have a BG in group.
Not even remotely following the outlined feedback posted on the initial page, secondly, you look to the chosen and knight and moral tactics, that have been identified as classes to be adjusted and existing issues that are being worked on to justify decisions. Please follow the OP for feedback structure.
Gerv.

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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#69 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:24 pm

I always hesitate posting stuff like this, because it technically doesnt involve the few areas we have talked about and Torq mentioned that any FURTHER changes will come from client control... but I did feel like pointing this out.

There was a thread ()

That talked a bit about this, and It never really hit me until I read that. Many of the BGs buffs and debuffs are all on separate abilities, which also means more GCD usage NOT spent doing all the other things all tanks must do:

(List):
Spoiler:
- taunt
- Challenge
- snare
- KD (most tanks have one)
- Punt
- Guard/Guard swap
- HTL (SnB)
- remove buff (Shatter Enchant/Sever Blessing)
And then you get into the class specifics. Mainly. Group buffing and enemy debuffing. Admittedly, I have not played BO to stay "destru focused" but I played a Knight/Chosen/SM/BG extensively so I will use my knowledge from just those tanks.

- Knight/Chosen: Obviously this is EZ mode and is not the standard... and should be nerfed.. But the reason I bring this up, is because the BUFF and DEBUFF are on the same thing - the auras. Even their abilities that debuff (Blast Wave) are AoE debuffs.

- SM (again havnt played BO): Not only are the enchants "procs" (not requiring GCDs) but a key debuff (Wrath of Hoeth) is AoE. Allowing most of the TIME spent using GCDs for SM, focused on a target with rather low "build up" time (Example: E.B. -> Q.I. -> Wrath -> Protection of H. -> Eagles Flight -> WW/ED). There are many "options" in there, just using this as 1 example in which a SM gets to "auto-budd/debuff" via enchants + AoE debuff. Max rotation isnt very long... and already includes things like: - stat buff/debuffs (built in), snare, self parry buff, aoe debuff, self bubble, etc.

- BG... This is where you have a clunkiness issue where each thing only does ONE piece. So a "hypothetical" rotation (not theory crafting but sake of illustration):

- Crippling Anger -> Feeding on Weakness, Brutal Smash -> Shield of Rage -> Enraged Beating (3 secs) -> Horrific Wound -> Pitless Strike -> Furious Howl-> Crimson Death (2h).... This rotation doesnt even include things like Crush the Weak or Crushing Anger, etc. But is ~11 seconds long versus ~ 6 seconds for an SM and maybe less for Chosen/Knight (or atleast the same).

The ISSUES I SEE:
- BGs buffs are on different abilities than debuffs (requires 2x the GCDs)
- BGs BEST debuffs require either HIGH hate cost or require hate to use....

Which in the end, while I like all the TOOLS BG has... it takes 2x the "setup" to use them all. Which is why, in the end, the design of the core of the BG fails (imo) compared to other tanks who can bring more to the party (group buffs).

I dont have a solution and I dont want to start proposing solutions. But it seems to me that this is an issue. While the BG is fun to play... this is why it will always be seen as a lower tier tank. Even if Chosen/Knights auras are nerfed and more focused... The fact remains, Chosen/Knight/SM/BO have "auto" debuff/buffs that are AOE/GROUP WIDE where as all the BGs stuff its on its own GCDS and is mostly single target.

Sorry for Wall-o-texting here.. I just was not sure where else to write this all... I hope you guys dont see this as complaining as its not. I enjoy my BG very much (especially after changes) but this seems to be an underlying issue and I wonder if its possible to merely swap around a few things to alleviate this....

Something should be looked at with regards to hate scaling and hate spending. Too many abilities require hate scaling as well as hate spending. Without things like Enraged beating (consumes 3 sec) its difficult to keep hate up (especially with CD having such a high cost). If you WERE to use:
- Pitless Strike
- Furious Howl
- Crimson Death
You would go from 100 hate -> 20 hate... Which means none of the other rotation is usable due to it all scaling off hate... (Punt/Crush the Weak/Horrific Wound/Crushing Anger).

So you have very few options to use with low hate and almost too many options to use at maximum hate.. Youll spend a few GCDs just using the non hate spending abilities, and then a few GCDs spending your hate, all of which took tremendous build up/time and then leaves you back to very few options....

So to list these out BG (non Mastery):
Spoiler:
NO Hate Relation:
- Crippling Anger
- Murderous Wrath
- *Hateful Strike* (nobody uses unless you take Terry Foe)
- Mind Killer

HATE SCALING:
- Horrific Wound
- Crush the Weak
- Exile
- Feading on Weakness
- Spiteful Slam
- Brutal Smash
- Crushing Anger

HATE SPENDING:
- Pitless Strike
- Monstro Rending
- Shield of Rage
- Furious Howl

So it seems to me... That a few hate scaler should be made to NOT scale with hate... Since you have 11 non Mastery abilities that all compete with eachother at any given time... Which is NOT the case on any of the other tanks... Even SM, you have a small handful of Normal Balance abilities that compete

SM NON MASTERY:
Spoiler:
NORMAL BALANCE:
G.L.
Grace Strike (nobody uses)
E.B.

Then IMPROVED BALANCE:
Q.I.
E.F.
I.B.
W.O.H. (most used abilitiy - AoE debuff)

Then PERFECT BALANCE you make a choice depending on the situation, knowing that within 2 GCD you can get back to Perfect Balance to use another if needed... (Unless ED obviously).
However on BG... Say you just used Furious Howl (30 Hate). Well you COULD use a lack luster Hate Scaler but likely not.. since its just not as good at all..... Everything is just "competing" with each other... meanwhile the SM has less "competition" while also auto-buff/debuff as part of the rotation. I know Enraged Beating helps generate it. But it almost seems like some of the hate spenders could be reduced a bit and so could hate generators, which leads to overall similar "balance" but less of the feeling that in 2 hate spenders (CD+FH) you just wiped out all your hate and now cant really use any hate scalers or spenders...


Ill stop now.. I could easily write more... Again, sorry for the wall of text but this is a point that I think needed to be really fleshed out in order to SEE it.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#70 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:42 pm

Not playing BG atm but I think a common misstake is trying to use all abilities in a mega rotation. You only have gcd issues if you use a lot of worthless abilities.

Think of it in smaller sequences with a purpose teamed with stuff that makes sense. Don't spam **** most debuffs/buffs don't win and look at the tactics. If you have one that makes you crit more when you spend hate use a hate spending ability pref every 5s so you get high uptime and always before EB.

Do try out the available hate builders and hate building tactics if you have problems keeping hate up.
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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