[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

[Azarael]

Before going into how the mandatory status could be broken I want to talk a bit more about the playstyle of the WP/DoK. So let’s talk about the current optimal way of healing, even though I’d rather not give it away but since it’s going to be changed anyway w/e. For maximum healing output in both large and especially small scale you have to be in melee range of something you can attack. It can be a pet, turret or player it doesn’t matter. But the most effective way to get your RF/SE back is through attacking enemies with Sigmar’s Radiance and Transfer Essence. On my WP I hardly ever cast Supplication to regain RF, I generally just spam Sigmar’s Radiance to maintain RF WHILE also healing. This means that the current optimal way to play is generally to play as a melee. A big but though is when the enemy runs a BG with the outgoing healdebuff. This basically forces you to stay away from the enemy melee train and just by the threat of the BG, it reduces your healing output quite a bit. (Same for IB and DoK ofc)

For large scale the same is true, attacking with Sigmar’s Radiance and Transfer Essence is the most optimal way to get your RF/SE back. Also because you keep your mobility, while if you have to cast Supplication or Blood Offering you have to stand still for a while. Smite and Essence Lash can be used when you are not in melee range of 1 target but can hit multiple targets with your AoE, once again keeping your mobility.

I just want to touch upon this briefly. I did not go down the direction of a 2 state class (dps <-> heal) because of concerns that requiring WP/DoK to build resources and Willpower in melee would not work or could not be made to work in large scale. Would you dispute that opinion? If so, I would certainly rather move in a 2 state direction.

Not on topic but the melee healing in current state is a lot easier than backline healing

I've indeed acknowledged this. With S'R and TE being the only thing I can adjust that costs AP, I'm left in a tough spot.

This is quite hard because the DoK/WP has different strengths in both small and large scale. For large scale its main strength is its mobility while doing high AoE healing. For small scale it mostly is its superior healing output. The approach Azarael seems to want to take is completely split backline healer and melee healer. I personally am more in favour in hybrids between these two and leaning more towards either side depending on the situation. As I’ve said, playing in melee range is already favourable compared to staying at range all the time. By strengthening this effect you could bring former backline WPs/DoKs more into melee. But when you talk about the mandatory status to be broken, it should be a combination of changes to DoK/WP and also the other healers. Like whenever you have a standard healer you want to combine it with a RP/ZL. But there is not a single point in running a ZL/RP in combination with a melee heal DoK/WP. AM/Shaman with the experimental changes have really strong single target healing output, but lack a bit of AoE healing while maintaining high single target HPS. Same could be said for RP/ZL.

Not quite. My preferences are in this order:

1) Single heal state using Grace / Vitality mechanics, all players stack Str as main stat, split fairly evenly between melee and casting heals
2) Two floating heal states using current mechanics, with backline used for RvR and to cover
3) Split heal states with hard lockout, Grace / Vitality work as 1) and Salvation/Dark Rites are pure casted healer

There are so many ways you could break the mandatory status but I personally believe it involves improving AoE healing of the other 4 healers. This is especially the case for large scale. Next to this I would suggest making it stronger to also be in melee while still playing mostly caster WP/DoK with Book/Chalice. Whatever strength you give should be taken away by the casts itself. I’m going to give a simple example but there are probably a lot more fun and interesting (and possibly skilful) ways. The example would be to increase the base heal of Sigmar’s Radiance/Transfer Essence and nerfing the AoE heal from Touch of the Divine/Khaine’s Embrace.

I'd be concerned about lowering the output of TotD / K'E directly. I generally prefer limiters over weakening when it comes to hybrid mechanics, which is why I want to increase the AP cost on S'R / TE to prevent overuse of an easy melee effect.

What I am personally against is to have different heal stances. I can agree with a pure dps stance because it deals with the issue of having too much damage while still being able to heal a lot. By reducing the healing of pure dps WPs/DoKs you can turn them into full dps with the damage of pure dps classes. But for healing I think the most skillfull way to play is to play something between full ranged and full melee, that is as replacement for the backline healer. In that sense I would suggest not to mess up the armour values of the WP/DoK because if you do and force them to play as full ranged you also have to give them ways to kite and in my opinion it just doesn’t fit to the class.

Unless I'm missing something subtle, it seems we agree on that.

I’m not giving very concrete changes for now because I should really think carefully about what changes would do well. Also I have only written about “backline” DoK/WP, but it will be quite a challenge to make both backline DoK/WP and meleeheal DoK/WP work good together (as changes to one not make the other OP).

All right. I'll wait for further analysis.

[nwcpadme]

DOK/WP is mandatory because of lack aoe heal not because DOK/WP is OP. (tanks is mandatory to. so should we herf tanks?)
Coerce DOK/WP to go in melee and the same time reduce their damage it means to kill class, because another healer classes can heal without the need to get into a fight.
I think that for a variety of healers in the group should be strengthened AoE heal others healers (probably due to the stronger separation of direct and AoE heal).

If you want to change something in the game you can go back to the old DOK/WP mechanics, when they heal by strike (rend soul) in a small area but all allies.

[chakzo]

point 3)

The only issue with backline heal DoK/WP was their high durability caused by combination of armor and aoe detaunt making the healing under pressure easier.


DPS DoK was able to hold up himself and his guard with melee before reworking.

I know it was a lot of work, testing and some of the changes may be viable later on, but the game is shifting more against MDPS classes 6v6 wise. Changes like undefendable melee heals seems too much from my perspective.

[zumos2]

Spoiler:

Before going into how the mandatory status could be broken I want to talk a bit more about the playstyle of the WP/DoK. So let’s talk about the current optimal way of healing, even though I’d rather not give it away but since it’s going to be changed anyway w/e. For maximum healing output in both large and especially small scale you have to be in melee range of something you can attack. It can be a pet, turret or player it doesn’t matter. But the most effective way to get your RF/SE back is through attacking enemies with Sigmar’s Radiance and Transfer Essence. On my WP I hardly ever cast Supplication to regain RF, I generally just spam Sigmar’s Radiance to maintain RF WHILE also healing. This means that the current optimal way to play is generally to play as a melee. A big but though is when the enemy runs a BG with the outgoing healdebuff. This basically forces you to stay away from the enemy melee train and just by the threat of the BG, it reduces your healing output quite a bit. (Same for IB and DoK ofc)

For large scale the same is true, attacking with Sigmar’s Radiance and Transfer Essence is the most optimal way to get your RF/SE back. Also because you keep your mobility, while if you have to cast Supplication or Blood Offering you have to stand still for a while. Smite and Essence Lash can be used when you are not in melee range of 1 target but can hit multiple targets with your AoE, once again keeping your mobility.

I just want to touch upon this briefly. I did not go down the direction of a 2 state class (dps <-> heal) because of concerns that requiring WP/DoK to build resources and Willpower in melee would not work or could not be made to work in large scale. Would you dispute that opinion? If so, I would certainly rather move in a 2 state direction.

I guess you mean meleeheal <-> backline heal because with the 5 min cd on Wrath/Torture you do have 2 states. So considering meleeheal <-> backline and having different states or not. I guess it is a question of balance, when just spamming Sigmar’s Radiance and Divine Assault is stronger than also casting other healing spells + a 15 second cooldown on swapping between the prayers then you do create a situation of meleeheal versus backline heal rather than something that uses both. I also think that tactics as Divine Fury and Fanaticism/Murderous Intent really hurt the idea of melee heal combined with cast heal effects. So with the current iteration it did result into basically 2 states, even though it wasn’t your intent. (When I played the meleeheal WP I ended up only casting some HoTs when moving between targets, but just using Sigmar’s Radiance and Divine Assault was the most efficient way to play).

Spoiler:

Not on topic but the melee healing in current state is a lot easier than backline healing

I've indeed acknowledged this. With S'R and TE being the only thing I can adjust that costs AP, I'm left in a tough spot.

I understand that. I’m personally of the opinion it would be better to wait until you have client control so you are able to make more drastic changes and add/delete spells. Just increasing AP costs will probably result into spamming Watch an’ Learn of IB on the WP and running a ZL for the AP Ritual for the DoK to deal with that issue.

Spoiler:

This is quite hard because the DoK/WP has different strengths in both small and large scale. For large scale its main strength is its mobility while doing high AoE healing. For small scale it mostly is its superior healing output. The approach Azarael seems to want to take is completely split backline healer and melee healer. I personally am more in favour in hybrids between these two and leaning more towards either side depending on the situation. As I’ve said, playing in melee range is already favourable compared to staying at range all the time. By strengthening this effect you could bring former backline WPs/DoKs more into melee. But when you talk about the mandatory status to be broken, it should be a combination of changes to DoK/WP and also the other healers. Like whenever you have a standard healer you want to combine it with a RP/ZL. But there is not a single point in running a ZL/RP in combination with a melee heal DoK/WP. AM/Shaman with the experimental changes have really strong single target healing output, but lack a bit of AoE healing while maintaining high single target HPS. Same could be said for RP/ZL.

Not quite. My preferences are in this order:

1) Single heal state using Grace / Vitality mechanics, all players stack Str as main stat, split fairly evenly between melee and casting heals
2) Two floating heal states using current mechanics, with backline used for RvR and to cover
3) Split heal states with hard lockout, Grace / Vitality work as 1) and Salvation/Dark Rites are pure casted healer

I think we are almost on the same line. I do agree with having a single heal state that (partly) uses Grace/Vitality mechanics. I think it would be nice to be able to use either strength or willpower (like you can do with the current experimental mode). Last I would like to see players having adjust their playstyle on the fly between being more focused on meleeheals or more focused on casted heals. The most optimal way should then be a combination of both.

Spoiler:

There are so many ways you could break the mandatory status but I personally believe it involves improving AoE healing of the other 4 healers. This is especially the case for large scale. Next to this I would suggest making it stronger to also be in melee while still playing mostly caster WP/DoK with Book/Chalice. Whatever strength you give should be taken away by the casts itself. I’m going to give a simple example but there are probably a lot more fun and interesting (and possibly skilful) ways. The example would be to increase the base heal of Sigmar’s Radiance/Transfer Essence and nerfing the AoE heal from Touch of the Divine/Khaine’s Embrace.

I'd be concerned about lowering the output of TotD / K'E directly. I generally prefer limiters over weakening when it comes to hybrid mechanics, which is why I want to increase the AP cost on S'R / TE to prevent overuse of an easy melee effect.

It was just a simple example but I think we need to come up with a more complex solution so that players really have to both use cast heals and melee heals.

Spoiler:

What I am personally against is to have different heal stances. I can agree with a pure dps stance because it deals with the issue of having too much damage while still being able to heal a lot. By reducing the healing of pure dps WPs/DoKs you can turn them into full dps with the damage of pure dps classes. But for healing I think the most skillfull way to play is to play something between full ranged and full melee, that is as replacement for the backline healer. In that sense I would suggest not to mess up the armour values of the WP/DoK because if you do and force them to play as full ranged you also have to give them ways to kite and in my opinion it just doesn’t fit to the class.

Unless I'm missing something subtle, it seems we agree on that.

I guess we do, but the current iteration with a having two different healing stances goes against that idea. I would like to see one healing stance and one dps stance (Wrath/Torture). If you would implement that in the current iteration you would let Prayer of Absolution (Covenant of Tenacity) and Prayer of Devotion (Covenant of Vitality) do exactly the same so you have no two different healing stances.

Spoiler:

I’m not giving very concrete changes for now because I should really think carefully about what changes would do well. Also I have only written about “backline” DoK/WP, but it will be quite a challenge to make both backline DoK/WP and meleeheal DoK/WP work good together (as changes to one not make the other OP).

All right. I'll wait for further analysis.

Gonna take a bit of time for that

[zumos2]

point 3)

The only issue with backline heal DoK/WP was their high durability caused by combination of armor and aoe detaunt making the healing under pressure easier.

It is definitely not just the durablity and almost no one uses AoE detaunt btw

DPS DoK was able to hold up himself and his guard with melee before reworking.

Such a general statement has no value in any discussion. Sure you could keep up against 2 mdps, but 2 rdps you would probably lose ... I hope you understand what I mean.

I know it was a lot of work, testing and some of the changes may be viable later on, but the game is shifting more against MDPS classes 6v6 wise. Changes like undefendable melee heals seems too much from my perspective.

Apart from the meleeheal DoK/WP having a place, the game isnt shifting to melee at all. Ranged groups are still very competetive in 6v6 and in general very strong in RvR roaming.

[sotora]

all players stack Str as main stat, split fairly evenly between melee and casting heals

I don't see that happening. Amount of overall damage both spike dmg and pressure dmg is very high, with changes to ROR in last 2-3 months even higher than before. So players going squischlier healer? Maybe I just lack imagination, but I don't see that happening.

[zumos2]

all players stack Str as main stat, split fairly evenly between melee and casting heals

I don't see that happening. Amount of overall damage both spike dmg and pressure dmg is very high, with changes to ROR in last 2-3 months even higher than before. So players going squischlier healer? Maybe I just lack imagination, but I don't see that happening.

Azarael meant strength instead of willpower as main stat.

[Scambug]

I wouldn't redesign them. I'd just remove the aoe of their detaunt.
There's no reason why one heal class should easily survive 1v5 while all the others can barely 1v2.
Their use of heavy armor is enough to account for them being melee, the aoe detaunt is overkill.

[sotora]

all players stack Str as main stat, split fairly evenly between melee and casting heals

I don't see that happening. Amount of overall damage both spike dmg and pressure dmg is very high, with changes to ROR in last 2-3 months even higher than before. So players going squischlier healer? Maybe I just lack imagination, but I don't see that happening.

Azarael meant strength instead of willpower as main stat.

I see. I've misunderstood then.

[dur3al]

I would suggest addressing "proc meta" before you go into DoK/WP changes, and also as it was mentioned, when you have full client control in order to be able to address everything, my 2 cents.

I know it was a lot of work, testing and some of the changes may be viable later on, but the game is shifting more against MDPS classes 6v6 wise. Changes like undefendable melee heals seems too much from my perspective.

Apart from the meleeheal DoK/WP having a place, the game isnt shifting to melee at all. Ranged groups are still very competetive in 6v6 and in general very strong in RvR roaming.

You both mean the same thing, and I've been advocating for this for some weeks now..