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[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

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Luuca
Posts: 1204

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#31 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:52 am

Azarael wrote:
We seem to be getting into the territory of playstyle protection more than anything - people looking for some way to retain the exact same restricted playstyle and assuming the changes were an attempt to balance backlining, instead of looking at the changes as a playstyle shifter, to the extent that we now have suggestions that revolve around pushing WP/DoK into the front, but not actually having them hit anything.
This is exactly the backlash you are getting IMO. Again, not supposed to talk about current .ex mode, but what you (and I) are reading on all of these posts is "I don't want to change my playstyle". You ask "Why?" and they say blah blah blah, but we all know it's facetank WP and DoK in the backlines and it's easy mode. Sure, they still die, but the skill cap was all gear/talisman/and detaunt related. Now, at least, they can't SC in HealTank Mode and be as effective.

I've never shied away from speaking directly about the changes you have made, you know this, and I'm not the authority on anything, but I will say I actually ENJOY playing the DoK in the .ex mode whereas before, I was getting Bored with the drudgery of healing. Good changes as-is IMO. Good work on these classes. It's now a L2P issue for career backline HealTanks.

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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#32 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:04 am

I posted my thoughts on how to "fix" WP awhile back. Check the declined area for it if you care.

I don't think there really is a good way to balance WP/dok. Either they are broken in small scale, or largely useless in orvr. But that describes a few classes no? I personally like the change to increase rf like morale in Orvr to give any type of backline healing. And I agree with potentially removing supplicate or the dok equivalent. If you're going to rebuild the class, don't pull your punches.

The main problem is the players. Same with SWs and SHs. How many of them actually swap stances depending on situation? I see it very rarely. I do believe that inherent laziness should be taken into account. And that the WP needs to function as an effective healer before any care or thought is given to damage. Period.

I love the hybrid builds as much as anyone, but the class is a healer. Melee healer sure. The issue has been that the class was an EZ mode 5 button BiS healer, or a wonky dps(for WP). Let's not go so far, that a functioning healer WP, with or without a guard, becomes a unicorn...

I understand new systems will take awhile to figure out. My only real annoyance, is that currently I can't tell if a WP/dok is dps or heals unless I ask or see the post SC results. Before, you could tell via 2h or dual wield. Now read the aura, or know the player so yes a lrn2play issue... When you are fighting a group with 2-3 WPs it's a hard to figure out which is healing at times. Edit: I meant this for detaunt purposes. Not all classes have AoE detaunts... It's nice to give some help to whom I need to drop that detaunt on without combing the combat log or Sc chart...
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

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sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#33 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:02 am

If you want to truly change meta and end with boring DoK/WP backline healer and you're willing to go far, here is my proposal:

1. Nuke backline caster DoK/WP from the orbit.

a) nerf heal value of casting skils, decrease their range, but make them castable on the move and maybe increase their duration (increased tick amount) - DoK/WP while not bashing skulls in melee will be running along group/melle train pre-hoting group members before next fight.

b) nerf main spammable group heal to make it not spammable

2. Melle healing reliable

I know you don't like SR/TE being spammable, but then you need much more melle heal skills for a rotations. Even brining 1 more back won't cut it. And in the end you need something at least semi-spammable. Healing cannot be as complex/rotation dependant as dpsing because it needs to be more reliable if people are gonna want you in group healing them.


3. Boost AM/Shaman/Zealot/RP - one of pair given much better group heals and other pair given much better cleanse & other issues ironed out (i.e. any AP issues they might have with intense backline healing).



Sure that means the end of DoK/WP as backline caster and it will mean they won't have much place in Warbands, but well you can't have everything. There are some classes now that don't have place in organised Warbands and sky is not falling.

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BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#34 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:15 am

The main problem is the players. Same with SWs and SHs. How many of them actually swap stances depending on situation? I see it very rarely. I do believe that inherent laziness should be taken into account. And that the WP needs to function as an effective healer before any care or thought is given to damage. Period.
Yes, show skill with a 5 minute lockout on stances. Seriously, number tweaking is all okay but 5 minute lockout is just... WRONG! At least Make it 30 second from Rightousness to Devotion, its not that a Dps WP has such cool healing numbers without any point spent! I understand that Melee WP switch to melee-Heal was to strong, but that was all before the WHOLE nerftrain. At least I want to be able and stand back and heal for something. What am I doing as Dps WP when DA is on CD? Spaming SR keeps noone alive!

You had the chance to make the class based on its description, a chance (a tool) for letting willed players balance their whole team. (Do I heal because 0 Healers, or do I dps because lack of melee)
But now you have to chose. Example: You are in a Team as DPS you have no Healers.
You cant go melee heal as only Healer, you will just get rekt 24/7.
You also can not go Devotion as Wrath, your heals JUST SUCK... so tell me the exact reason for a 5 minute lockout? (Rightousness to Devotion)
This is even more killing the skill ceiling.

For example: I play DPS (yes always) But if we have to split the team in SC for example, I want to be able to keep someone alive. But I am not interested in going CRAPHEALMODE for 5 whole minutes, (in a SC lol...), just because ppl think its fine with such overexaggerated cooldowns. :x

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Bozzax
Posts: 2481

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#35 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:44 am

Azarael wrote: I'm opening this topic under the idea that a future version of these classes will work around three modes/specs, with lockout times:

- Casted healing
- Melee/casted healing
- Damage
1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.
a) AM/SHA can’t Cleanse BW rotations
b) Can spam AOE heal without a thought and have decent performance (changed see EDIT)
2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.
a) Green and cleanin’ makes Shaman cleanse curse/ailment/hex
Isha’s Encouragement makes AM cleanse curse/ailment/hex
3) How their skillcap can be raised.
a) Lower the effectiveness of Touch of the Devine/Kahine’s Embrace spam by adding a CD increase of 0,5s per cast.

Blood offering/Supplication reduces CD on Touch of the Devine/Kahine’s 0,5 per tick (3s = back to 1,5)

Also reduce the cost of Restore Essence/Divine Aid to 35 SE/RF to make it meaningful to use.

This wold encourage DOK/WPs to actively use more non AOE heals, manage CDs with BO/Sup or take a significant hit on healing output.

1st KE 1,5s KE CD
2nd KE 2,0s KE CD
3d KE 2,5s KE CD
4th KE 3,0s KE CD
5th KE 3,0s KE CD
6th KE 3,0s KE CD
...

New Touch of the Devine/Kahine’s Embrace spam (simplified wo other stuff)
X---X----X-----X------ X------X------ X

Vs old
X--- X--- X--- X--- X--- X---X

EDIT: Ofc you spam group cleanse, group hot off CD not saying that. Secondly mixing in ST-heal and ST-hot is good but not really doing anything more but stretching your SE/RF pool.
with lockout times:
Spoiler:
WP and DOK

Keep from .ab ex the good stuff
+ No SE/RF regen from books/chalices
+ 10s CD on Prayers / Covenants
+ Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence heal for 350% of the damage both received and mitigated. This value will increase with the Grace of Sigmar and Empowered Transfer tactics.
+ Sigmar's Shield lasts for 7 seconds, drains 15 RF per second and is no longer undefendable, having 20% strikethrough instead.
+ Absence of Faith will debuff heals by 50%.

Prayer of Absolution and Covenant of Tenacity:
+ Provide 8 Righteous Fury / Soul Essence per second.
+ Convert 10% of your Strength into Willpower plus an additional 10% per second up to 100%. (9s to reach max)

Prayer of Devotion and Covenant of Vitality:
+ When used, converts 40% your Willpower into Strength and on proc adds another 10% up to 100% (six times).

Prayer of Righteousness & Covenant of Celerity:
+ When used, converts 40% your Willpower into Strength and on proc adds another 10% up to 100% (six times)
+ When you trigger your Prayer of Righteousness, it will increase your movement speed by 20% for 5 seconds.

Simplify them and cleanup them a bit. Maybe numbers need fine tuning but "soft lookout" from buildup times on stat conversion feels "right".

I think they should be required to slot the AOE detaunt to get it.
Last edited by Bozzax on Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:18 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#36 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:09 am

b) Can spam one ability (AOE heal) without a thought and have decent performance
This is simply not true and no good DoK/WP plays like this not even in ORVR coz if you do you run out of RF/SE in 3 seconds.
The truth is when you look at the numbers from a combat logs it looks like this.

25% Khaines Embrace
20% Khaine's Vugor
20% Khaines Invigoriation
15% Soul Infusion
And 20% from varius other sources. Like Prayers/Covenant, Restore Essence and Lingering effect

And a standard rotation without any panic healing looks like this Khaine's Vigpr, Soul Infusion, Patch Wounds(Situational) Khaine's Invigoriation, Khaines Embreace (Sometimes x2) Khaines Invigoration. Khaines Vigor, Blood Offering
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sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#37 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:04 pm

Bozzax wrote: b) Can spam one ability (AOE heal) without a thought and have decent performance
This is bull that has been going for far too long. It is simply not true. DoK AoE heal skill is an immediate heal that heal X amount of health on everyone in group provided they are within range, no hot component or anything else. Cost is 60 SE - 1/4 of maximum amount of SE stored. Even if you're max SE that means max 4 skill spam.

Spamming it is only useful when : 1. your group all take moderate dmg from aoe cannon during keep siege. Even then it is under optimal to just spam it.

2. You or server is lagging hard during lord room assault / big WB fight and you can't do proper rotation so you spam aoes to heal something at least.


Anything other than above - just spamming AoE heal won't get you anywhere else than dead group members and massive underperformance.

Proper DoK heal botting consist of wide usage of ST Hots for both pre-hoting and healing, ST direct heal supported by aoe HOT, and wound removal. Actuall spammable AOE heal is relatively rarely using in normal healing, as usually there is 1-2 people that are focused in your group. GL healing them using AOE spam. Amount healed will be underoptimal and you're left without SE which means in next few GCDs either you or your group mates are dead.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#38 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:11 pm

There's a reason why dok is staple to every group: it is an easy class to excel at with minimal effort required, and has the best survivability - along with some of the best group synergy (via covs) and utility (group cleanse) - of all healers. Anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves/doesn't want to be on an equal footing to other classes.
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zumos2
Posts: 432

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#39 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:25 pm

1 Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale

Let’s start with small scale. WP/DoK simply have the highest healing output compared to RP/AM/Shammy/ZL. Their single target healing I guess is comparable to the Shaman/AM, but next to the strong single target healing, they have by far the best AoE healing. Now it is easy to point at backline WP/DoK and say how OP they are, but in my eyes it is the combo of RP + WP and ZL + DoK that is really strong. The ZL/RP buffs the healing output of DoK/WP by 25%, gives a stagger to catch people and can somewhat reliably silence the enemy healer. Double WP is sh it and I personally also believe double DoK is quite a bit worse than ZL/DoK.

Next to the strong healing WP/DoK has a standard high armour so it can into the front lines. This extra armour makes it easier to survive being focused BUT it is not the case that they are unbillable. And the way the WP/RP and DoK/ZL functions it is quite often better for the RP/ZL to be focused than the WP/DoK. That is because when the WP/DoK being focused the healing output of your highest healing output healer goes down. While when the ZL/RP is focused they can maintain the 25% more healing buff on themselves, they have an instant heal cast, so they are not effected by setbacks at all. I want you to understand that it is not just WP/DoK are so OP, it is the WP+RP and DoK+ZL that is superior in terms of survivability and healing to any other healer setup.

For large scale it is quite a bit different. Why WP/DoK is so strong for large scale is very simple: They can maintain high AoE healing while staying very mobile. An AM can probably come quite close in terms of AoE healing because of basically infinite AP and just spamming group heal, but they become very stationary. (Shaman lacking Wild Healing will run out of AP) For large scale it is not just the high armour that makes WP/DoK strong, in fact a lot of large scale damage is magic damage, I believe it mostly is because of the mobility + strong AoE healing.

Before going into how the mandatory status could be broken I want to talk a bit more about the playstyle of the WP/DoK. So let’s talk about the current optimal way of healing, even though I’d rather not give it away but since it’s going to be changed anyway w/e. For maximum healing output in both large and especially small scale you have to be in melee range of something you can attack. It can be a pet, turret or player it doesn’t matter. But the most effective way to get your RF/SE back is through attacking enemies with Sigmar’s Radiance and Transfer Essence. On my WP I hardly ever cast Supplication to regain RF, I generally just spam Sigmar’s Radiance to maintain RF WHILE also healing. This means that the current optimal way to play is generally to play as a melee. A big but though is when the enemy runs a BG with the outgoing healdebuff. This basically forces you to stay away from the enemy melee train and just by the threat of the BG, it reduces your healing output quite a bit. (Same for IB and DoK ofc)

For large scale the same is true, attacking with Sigmar’s Radiance and Transfer Essence is the most optimal way to get your RF/SE back. Also because you keep your mobility, while if you have to cast Supplication or Blood Offering you have to stand still for a while. Smite and Essence Lash can be used when you are not in melee range of 1 target but can hit multiple targets with your AoE, once again keeping your mobility.

Lastly please stop the bullshit that WP/DoK healing is super easy. The healing part of WP/DoK is actually very skilful. Maybe the skill floor isn’t too high, but playing an optimal healing WP/DoK requires a lot of skill and there aren’t many that can reach it. The experimental changes increased the skill of AM/Shammy by quite a bit, but without those experimental changes DoK/WP is simply the most skilful healer in terms of healing output. What makes a lot of people say that WP/DoK is easy is their free survivability because of high armour. But as I have illustrated in the beginning it doesn’t work that simple in the highest level of play. Of course it is very nice to have that extra armour, but at the same time you don’t have the kiting tools like the other healers so you would be quite screwed without it anyway.

Not on topic but the melee healing in current state is a lot easier than backline healing :P

2 How that mandatory status is to be broken.

This is quite hard because the DoK/WP has different strengths in both small and large scale. For large scale its main strength is its mobility while doing high AoE healing. For small scale it mostly is its superior healing output. The approach Azarael seems to want to take is completely split backline healer and melee healer. I personally am more in favour in hybrids between these two and leaning more towards either side depending on the situation. As I’ve said, playing in melee range is already favourable compared to staying at range all the time. By strengthening this effect you could bring former backline WPs/DoKs more into melee. But when you talk about the mandatory status to be broken, it should be a combination of changes to DoK/WP and also the other healers. Like whenever you have a standard healer you want to combine it with a RP/ZL. But there is not a single point in running a ZL/RP in combination with a melee heal DoK/WP. AM/Shaman with the experimental changes have really strong single target healing output, but lack a bit of AoE healing while maintaining high single target HPS. Same could be said for RP/ZL.

There are so many ways you could break the mandatory status but I personally believe it involves improving AoE healing of the other 4 healers. This is especially the case for large scale. Next to this I would suggest making it stronger to also be in melee while still playing mostly caster WP/DoK with Book/Chalice. Whatever strength you give should be taken away by the casts itself. I’m going to give a simple example but there are probably a lot more fun and interesting (and possibly skilful) ways. The example would be to increase the base heal of Sigmar’s Radiance/Transfer Essence and nerfing the AoE heal from Touch of the Divine/Khaine’s Embrace.

What I am personally against is to have different heal stances. I can agree with a pure dps stance because it deals with the issue of having too much damage while still being able to heal a lot. By reducing the healing of pure dps WPs/DoKs you can turn them into full dps with the damage of pure dps classes. But for healing I think the most skillfull way to play is to play something between full ranged and full melee, that is as replacement for the backline healer. In that sense I would suggest not to mess up the armour values of the WP/DoK because if you do and force them to play as full ranged you also have to give them ways to kite and in my opinion it just doesn’t fit to the class.

I’m not giving very concrete changes for now because I should really think carefully about what changes would do well. Also I have only written about “backline” DoK/WP, but it will be quite a challenge to make both backline DoK/WP and meleeheal DoK/WP work good together (as changes to one not make the other OP).
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Bozzax
Posts: 2481

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#40 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:24 pm

roadkillrobin wrote: This is simply not true and no good DoK/WP plays like this ....

And a standard rotation without any panic healing looks like this Khaine's Vigpr, Soul Infusion, Patch Wounds(Situational) Khaine's Invigoriation, Khaines Embreace (Sometimes x2) Khaines Invigoration. Khaines Vigor, Blood Offering
sotora wrote:
Bozzax wrote: b) Can spam one ability (AOE heal) without a thought and have decent performance
Proper DoK heal botting consist of wide usage of ST Hots for both pre-hoting and healing, ST direct heal supported by aoe HOT, and wound removal.
You both are 100% correct, you use "group cleanse", "group hot", "group heal" and if you aren't a newbie you'll add "ST hot" and "ST heal" on top of this.

I tried to avoid a bit of itty gritty details in my post so I simplified a bit, maybe to much.

Regardless you can key bind you macro mouse to press "all listed" abilities on each "key press"
{
"group cleanse",
"group hot",
"ST-heal",
"group heal",
}

Simply by doing this stupid thing you will be surprisingly efficient. Or if you are a NB-noob you can do everything in one button like this:

THE_BETTER_THEN_ AVERAGE_HEALER_BUTTON {
ST heal (condition under HP%, condition moment-)
M1 heal (condition under HP%)
Group clns (condition over HP%)
Group hot (condition over HP%)
SI (condition stack 1 + condition over HP%)
Group heal (condition moment-)
Group absorb
}

I think my observation is using group heals isn't ineffective for even ST healing.

Simply "standard sequence" it with you clns, group hot and ST-heal (AP) and you heal ok-ish. Well provided you manage to keep a ST hot up as well.

There is no penalty for over use and I think having an "increasing CD" could encourage using ST heals more when your group don't really need group heals. Making DOK/WP a bit more skill based for good output and less "standard rotations" spam.

Hopefully it would also require planning ahead challenges for DOK/WPs using BO/Sup to avoid long CDs when you can't afford them.
Last edited by Bozzax on Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:37 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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