[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

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Azarael
Posts: 5343

[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#1 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:24 am

A number of you disagree with my direction in the recent changes.

I'm opening this topic under the idea that a future version of these classes will work around three modes/specs, with lockout times:

- Casted healing
- Melee/casted healing
- Damage

This being mainly for the sake of protecting the second mode, which is the conceptual one and how they should play. I freely admit that my ideal solution would be that 2 is the viable heal mode in small scale and 1 is the viable heal mode in large scale.

So, I want to see explanations, detailed ones, of the following:

1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.
2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.
3) How their skillcap can be raised. My view is that this can be done in small scale by linking the melee healing to the casted healing, as at present, adding Divine Strike / Consume Essence and increasing the AP cost of Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. If you have an alternative suggestion to increase the skill requirement given what the class has, feel free to venture it.

This thread is not for suggesting that casting DoK/WP are fine. There will be a solution to the problems that they present, that's not in question here.

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Arbich
Posts: 499

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#2 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:29 am

The big advantage of WP-backline was always short cast-times. The disadvantage was almost no cc-tools and somewhat worse AP/Fury-Management in comparison to AM/RP. This was (more than) compensated by high armor and 100% uptime ae-detaunt.

I don´t understand why you implented the increased fury-reg on large-scale fights.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

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Azarael
Posts: 5343

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#3 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:31 am

This topic isn't for discussion of the .ex mode. The roles are being reversed here - I'm asking what all of you would do in my place. How do you solve the lack of skill the class has when played as pure caster? It has no tools because of the way it was pigeonholed, so it's stand-and-tank, it has a highly restricted, fast-casting skillset and a lot of that skillset is AoE, because it was meant to be taxed by its melee side. How do you resolve that and its balance issues without redesigning the entire skillset and without reconciling the casting and melee skillsets?

I'll make it a bit easier for you: I am prepared to tolerate lack of skill in RvR, because... zerg. In small scale, however, the class can and should require some effort, and it should work according to concept. So - if not according to my beliefs - then how?

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Arbich
Posts: 499

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#4 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:16 am

Sorry, I don´t get what you want. WP is AE-class with fast cast-times. You don´t want to change this and I my opinion you shouldn´t change this.
With the recent change to group clease you already slightly increase the skill-cap.
The only other option I see, is making fury-regeneration more difficult. Which you did with .ab ex mode, so I don´t understand why you won´t discuss this mode here. The requirement to switch to devotion at the right time for increased armor and AE-detaunt means an increased skill-cap, not?

I would say noboby will question the importance of CC and anti-cc tools in RoR. So a class that lacks most of this tools (or have only weak abilites), is easier to play by default. Changing this would require redesigning the skillset and you don´t want to do this :-)
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

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vouzou
Posts: 120

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#5 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:19 am

Azarael wrote:A number of you disagree with my direction in the recent changes.

I'm opening this topic under the idea that a future version of these classes will work around three modes/specs, with lockout times:

- Casted healing
- Melee/casted healing
- Damage

This being mainly for the sake of protecting the second mode, which is the conceptual one and how they should play. I freely admit that my ideal solution would be that 2 is the viable heal mode in small scale and 1 is the viable heal mode in large scale.

So, I want to see explanations, detailed ones, of the following:

1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.
2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.
3) How their skillcap can be raised. My view is that this can be done in small scale by linking the melee healing to the casted healing, as at present, adding Divine Strike / Consume Essence and increasing the AP cost of Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. If you have an alternative suggestion to increase the skill requirement given what the class has, feel free to venture it.

This thread is not for suggesting that casting DoK/WP are fine. There will be a solution to the problems that they present, that's not in question here.
Ok i will say my opinion and give some thoughts about it.

1) DoK's/Wp are mandatory because
a) they have aoe cleanse
b) they have short cast times
c) they are mostly aoer's (aoe heal, aoe shield, aoe hot)
d) they can stay live more time than other healers because they have medium armour and can stack armour talismans.
e) their buffs ( conenants and prayers) are pretty solid like chozen and knight buffs, and can't be removed via shatter enchantment.

2) How you can break that status?
Make covenants-prayer either for cast heal, melee heal or dps.
For example:
a) Tenacity will increase your soule essence regeneration will give 660 armour to your group and will reduce your armour by that amount.On the same time SS regenaration can stack with chalise too but only if you use tenacity.Doing so you need to remove all single target heals from him allowin to only group heal. Maybe using tenacity won't be able to use any melee skills.This kind of DoK can be played only as cast heal.
b) Vitality will give 25 chanse of doing spirit dmg and gain it as life will will increase healing from lifetaps for a percentage (at about the same percentage it is right now, or we can test it and see whats the proper one), and will reduce casting healing abilities at about 50%.maybe all lifetap abilities heal all group members and all dmg abilities can lifetap while on vitality. This DoK will use melee skills to heal his party doing some dmg.
c) Celerity will have 35% of spirit dmg and snare, increase melee dmg for 50% reduce healing for 75% and all lifetap abilities become single target ones. This dok will mostly do dmg and toss a lifetap when needed and if he want's too to only one target.
d) Maybe keeping the stats swap as they are now will be good for covenants-prayers.
e)You must boost a little bit the casting times of other healing classeds aswell, or if you decide to make dok's/wp's aoe healer then boost the Single target healing abilities (casting times) of the other classes.
f) Restore the aoe cleanse for DoK/WP and make stronger the single target cleanse across the board, maybe remove 2 effects from the same target.

Doing this you give for DoK 3 roles. Either backline healer focusing on sort cast group heals, either full DpS with lesser healing abilities, or the melee healer lifetaper which can aoe lifetap his party by doing a small amount of dmg to his opponents.(Maybe lifetaps are tied to willpower instead of strenght).

3) Dok's/Wp's abilities are good as they are now. In my opinion if you want to raise them make it with giving actual roles to covenants-prayers as i wrote above. There must be a red line on what skills i can use and what role i can have depending on the covenant-prayer i am using, and switching on those roles during a fight to help my group for some dps must have a cost on my main role and main skills i use because if i want to dps for example then i must dps and not be good at dps and be good at heal on the same time.

Hope these ideas help on your work.

Korthian DoK of Phalanx
Korthian Dok of Phalanx
Girkim Shaman of Phalanx

sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#6 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:34 am

First of all, I would like to say that I am sorry that I will adress only small part of OP. Reason for that is that I disagree conceptually with stated reasons to change DoK/WP (and some of other changes made to RoR) and since you've strong belief in the course of the action I cannot affect your decisions since my arguments would be incompatibilie with your reasons to change in first place on fundamental level.

I will thus reply only to a point in which my input might have some value.
Azarael wrote: 3) How their skillcap can be raised. My view is that this can be done in small scale by linking the melee healing to the casted healing, as at present, adding Divine Strike / Consume Essence and increasing the AP cost of Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence.
I don't know about WP, but DoK is already AP starved class, I am myself using AP items (more or less depending on role/build), which in case of melee (both dps and healer) DoK is already problematic since class has preety low HP pool and AP items generally lack wounds. This is not a 'backlash' reaction but rather an observation.

So I would like to hear where exactly you think their skillcap should be raised and in what role. It seems you think that small scale melee healing role should require more skill do I understand that right? I want to clarify because before any proposal I would like to be sure what you're asking to adress.

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3685

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#7 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:32 am

DoK/WP have 2 resource pools to draw on for their abilities and multiple mechanics in order to generate more resource

WL is an ap starved class, DoK is not and furthermore they dont have to deal with Choking fury + draining swipes combo

so what ever ap issues you have seem to kinda be ap mismanagement on your part

They have medium armor and armor covenant, DoK and WP are the most durable of all the healers so saying they have low armor is nonsensical
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Tholkienn
Posts: 246

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#8 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:25 am

If a heal spec, when switching into prayer of healing, convert is will bonus into a strench, that can muscle is game, and having more tools to no stand and tank, as he do before with 3700 armor.

Now, with 1K7 armor, less than an AM, 2 melee dps atomise you. Simple and clear: no break cc, a snare in two skill, on little aoe bump.

I think 50% less armor is to strong, Perhaps a test with 25% for few days can be a good issue.

We need to recover the skill, don't remember the name, a hit who heal around your position. I think it will be a good tool for being a melee healer.

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impra
Posts: 6

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#9 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:01 am

i believe that the original concept of DOK/WP in beta and the first weeks was a very good mode of a melee healer with the early "Divine Strike" PBAoe heal making yourself a strong part in a meleetrain. You could backline for a while but hat to kneel down every four or five casts , reducing your effetiveness below the level of caster healer.

With the implementation of the book /chalice and the strike ability give RF without any target it made the need to hit some enemy obsolet. This was the birth of the tank backline AOE heal spammer.

If you want to make the meleeheal a concept again i would just remove this .
You can have 3 types of melee healer. The more dps emergency healer, the MT supprter, or the skirmish healer being between the lines but having the need to be in combat quick.

No more i heal and i heal and i heal as our beloved Loudspeaker called it in those legenbdary podcasts.

sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#10 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:21 am

TenTonHammer wrote:DoK/WP have 2 resource pools to draw on for their abilities and multiple mechanics in order to generate more resource

WL is an ap starved class, DoK is not and furthermore they dont have to deal with Choking fury + draining swipes combo

so what ever ap issues you have seem to kinda be ap mismanagement on your part
WL (at least in it's current iteration) as well as WE/WH are designed to be burst dps classes. AP depletion is intertwined in their core design, they are not created for sustained dps after all. Melle Healer is supposed to be healing & support dpsing for long peroids in intense encounters if necessary. Apples & Oranges.

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