[Implementation Feedback] RvR design

[Stmichael1989]

Separate post to keep things a little more organized.

As for the current system of RvR, it lacks definition. To be more specific, the current system is entirely open ended with the most basic of objectives: Kill your enemies keep lord, and don't let yours die. In other types of games with different systems in place, that can be a good thing. In WAR, it's a recipe for boring zergs getting hurled at keeps with varying levels of success. In a system with such simple victory conditions, it's no surprise that zerging reigns supreme, because it works. Not only does it work, it has no effective counter save to zerg harder than your opponent or bore them until they start quitting.

One thing open RvR has always lacked is meaningful objectives. When I say meaningful, I mean something that causes an impact on the game that helps the underdog out. The change to BO's in RoR allowing defenders to repel attackers by capturing two BO's is a decent example of what I'm talking about, but it still falls into the category of delaying the inevitable. There's no real victory for the underdog capturing the BO's, they just annoy the attackers with a delay. Do it enough times and they'll eventually "win," but that gets back to my point about boring your opponent into quitting.

If you want to make keep sieges fun and engaging, I suggest a series of mini objectives like a PQ with win conditions for both the offense and defense. Whether it be a war of attrition, capture objectives, putting a series of tough NPCs at certain locations, or whatever good ideas someone can come up with. Giving structure and breaking up the monotony of a keep siege should be paramount to RvR revision.

[faiden]

We just attacked the order keep in CW and got the outer keep down destroyed. We ran out of siege cannons and had to run back to our keep to pick up some more AOE cannons to destroy the funnel. We ran instantly yo our keep and back without interruptions. When we got back the door instantly re-spawned to a 100% We held all BOs. However I was told we dropped 2 Supply right in front of their door that order might have picked up. However that would not have re-spawned the door to 100%.

[Azarael]

Cause identified and handled.

[7rere7]

Edited

1.Only one zone open at any given time ,that zone having originally one BO open in it. Time on defending each BO captured 8 minute's ,unlock time roughly 15-20 minute's ?
2. First BO empty.
3. BO 1 captured say by Order ,BO 2 would be open ,(no timer) flag would be destruction side with guards defending ,(applies to all other remaining BO's).
4 .BO 3 Increased power rank x2 of normal BO guards ,unlocks when BO 2 has been captured.
5. BO 4 put the keep champion and Lord at BO 4, (yes the keep champs and Lord) ,open when BO 3 is captured.
6. Keep take is now ready to be captured , no champions or Lord defending keep, only players can defend ,with siege weapons .
7. Keep can only be captured with a BO flag being completely tapped,any combat damage will reset flag. The keep capture flag would replace where the keep lord was at.
8. Any player that dies defending keep has a death penalty timer that allows them not to enter and defend keep.
9. Any BO that has been retaken by opposite realm their death penalty timer will be reduced and the keep flag timer to cap will be increased.

Keeps can only be taken when all 4 BO's have been completely captured by destruction or order. A timer to take the keep will be in affect ,when the timer has ended the keep cannot be captured .Only keeps can be retaken when all 4 BO's have been recaptured by the same realm.

[Tesq]

another problem, i found it's that sometimes group/wb get spread between keep/wc if a chek could be implemented for x time after the death of 1 group member(and refreshed every time 1 ppl die ) to assure the all respwan in the same spot (keep/wc)

---> should take into account the major of the ppl death and make everyone resp togheter, in the need make all resp at keep if possible

[Buran]

2Azarael:

some have claimed that the zerging is worse, while others have stated that their forces have been spread too thinly by the system to be able to take a keep. I would like to know which of these viewpoints is true, and why, before making another move.

IMHO.
the game WHO is about ganking and zerging. My friends come with me here because this game about RvR with tactics and strategy. Ofcouse if u do some nessesary things u can lose less. For exampe - each party should have 2 tanks, 2 DDs, 2 heals... u can defend any keep with tanks wall, u should be togather. But... Each RL has his expirience how to win when enemy is stronger. I was RL of open WB and close WB with voice coordination. We can win but it is hard, and - WE LOVE THIS.

[Akalukz]

Why not have the siege (artillery) damage fluctuate depending on where it is deployed, IE in the radius of a keep or BO, higher damage, as those are fortified areas. In other areas, have less damage or less secondary effect. This will bring back the power to stuff a zerg, while lessening the effect in open combat.

I agree with the whole underdog vs stronger side issue, their is no enjoyable way for the underdog to win. But there could be.

Easiest way to take a zone - take a keep
Hardest way to take a zone - victory points (not like the old system, but something new.. a mix of kills / bo takes / champion and hero kills etc, I know people don't like PVE in their RvR, but there is a place for it)

This way both sides have a shot at taking a zone.

I have honestly not been playing much in T4 lately, there is little use for small groups 2-3 players. Especially if they are mele makeup. Add this in to the fact that there is no real way to stop a zerg outside of getting your own zerg, well its just not fun. Just to be clear, I LOVE RvR and the roaming factor and the chance encounter and fight.

[Danielle]

I would just say wait for client control and stuff like siege towers (destructible walls?), that could make keep sieges a lot more fun. Hitting a door and then charging through one hole isn't going to be exciting in itself no matter what one does about it; the only thing that drove keep fights and fortress fights on live was realm pride and the vision of gear and a city siege in the future. However, there is a certain epicness about keep fights, the numbers involved etc. that can make people enjoy them.

Another point would be to make keep fights a lot more active - not a Mexican standoff with one side in front and the other one on the walls. I don't have a lot of time to figure it out specifically, but maybe having some control points around the keep and in the keep itself that motivate people to sally out and have skirmishes inside the keep grounds; those points could allow siege deployment or could channel magical power to the keep lord; anything that makes them worth fighting over and making the fight more mobile and active rather than just staring at each other statically over a crenellation.

Regardless of the system, the defenders should have an advantage that is strategic in nature. Think about Great Britain defending against the Luftwaffe in WW2. Despite having less fighters by factors the amount of fighters fighting in the air over Britain was much more equal, because the Huns had to fly there and back to refuel for a much longer distance than the British fighters. Asymmetries in terrain/respawn points/exits from keep and control point positioning could help this.

I also realize people hated Diminishing Rations in its' initial implementation, but it might be worth pursuing it a little bit more and working on the fact that it shouldn't punish the lower populated realm and making it more about local superiority rather than zone superiority.

[Tesq]

the controll point inside outer wall is also i my idea but i think aza want direct feedback on not working stuff atm rather than more thing to implement. Also ye most of the solution to the funnel pass from sieges towers: it's better split keep siege and rvr meccanic in 2 topic and give aza feedback only on the rvr for now. When they will have client control you could talk more actively to make less ripetitive keep sieges.

[anarchypark]

in my experience
BO skirmish is now center of orvr.
keep is minor object, aftermath of BO war
or very hard object to take

siege starts when target keep is 0~1 star

until that time it's supply running fight
when both side have equal powers it's super fun field war
a lot of skirmish, flanking, second wave, reinforcement etc

problem is when 1 side getting upper hand
losing side will keep losing and losing again until their keep become 0 lvl

then 2 scenarios come

1.
with 0 lvl keep, underdog know it's hopeless. foes already beaten them several times at BOs
ppl quit, blaming everything, they're getting weaker

it ends up zerg vs empty keep( or very small force )

2.
defenders sit in the keep after 1 wipe
if attackers don't perform well they have to spread for second ram, cannons, BOs

now back to BO skirmish and scenario 1 or 2 again

#2 is a bit of attackers L2P issue imo

suggestion 1. for empty keep
upgrade lord hp to hold 1wb for 10 min? to give defenders time?
until it's 2wb vs 2wb fight

i remember super lord prevented empty keep take
it actually reinforced underdogs number cuz there was a chance, hope to stop invade

suggestion 2.
wait and help ppl to adjust new system
new changes are more friendly to organised grp, less friendly to pug wb, leechers, afkers
i have no idea how to make ppl organised
maybe GMs secretly work as leaders in LFG chat... joke