[Implementation Feedback] RvR design

[Telen]

I think zergs are even more prevalent in ror due to the nature of a private server. I usually soloed for the last two years of war after most of my alliance moved games. You would regularly find soloers, maybe a few new player in a small guild running in groups of two or three coming from lower tiers. The one or two pres you could usually avoid roaming around. Alliance warband would been running from warcamp to warcamp so not a problem. You got all sortys.

Due to this being a new server with language barriers and people trying to fast level their renown. It turns into massive zergs as people xrealm to get as much renown as possible. Along with those issues you have more hardcore player from live who used to be spread between a few guilds who now have joined together to make pres that leave newer players no other option than to stay in the zerg. That players have stick to safety in numbers make soloing much less fun as a knock on.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

We been experience a problem wich has more to do with the community then the mechanic itself, but as a strong Destruction ORVR guild we see this happen to us all the time. We log in, make a warband, see that Order keep is 4 stars and ours is 1. We are at 40-100% AAO. At this point Order is supose to be the aggresor and try to attack our keep but they don't. Instead they just keep zerging flagged BO's with 3 warbands. After around 3 hours of just BO jumping we have managed to rank our keep up to 3 stars while Order i still at 4. We still have 40-100% AAO and Order just waiting for us to attack the keep. We get bored of the BO jumping and we know we can't attack their keep coz they have assloads of cannons, outnumber us and can hide between keepwalls. So even tho all odds are against us. Order is forcing us to eeither not play or play as the aggressors. I don't think Devs had this in mind when they designed the system. Were the stronger realm take the defensive role instead of the aggressor. I'm not really sure how to solve this problem either, I think there need to a function if you don't utlize your high rank keep status (+4)? within X amount of time (1hour?) the rank gets degradeds to 1 star or something like that. (Collected resources have a expiration date)

We don't attack because we're mostly pug WBs and if we exit the keep to fight you around BO's we get blown the **** out. If I try to roam I get blown the **** out.

There's no point trying to outzerg you with our numbers over your organization, because you'll outgank us.

That's what I've been explaining when I mentioned small-scale balance. We don't exit our keep, we don't roam, because we get utterly and absolutely destroyed. Yes, now there's a weapon to break the almighty zerg that took over RVR zones. The zerg dominated zones and prevented (most often destro) from being able to play. But now organized roaming and ganking prevents order from being able to play.

So we log on, ask in /t4 whether there's an empty zone to cap and if there isn't, we go sit in a keep to wait for a defense and play scenarios.

Don't underestimate the issue, because soon all the order players (including new ones, who haven't been ganked enough) will understand that there's no reason to exit the keep unless destro has at least 140+ aao.[/quote]

You have the exact same oppurtunnity to get organzed as we have. And I know there are guilds on Order that are doing organized warbands as we face em all the time. So no this is not a PuG vs Premadee issue. It's one side not willing to take the role as the aggressor when they are getting opposition. And they don't take the oppurunnity to attack when they are "supose to" for the sake of farming kills. Thats means there is a hole in the system that needs to be plugged.

[anarchypark]

not many wb leaders know siege weapon's power yet
rank 5 keep's full amount of siege weapons, it would be a total war scale
i have no clue why wb leaders refuse to use it. probably some language barrier
and some ppl just too accustomed to old system
it's little depressing that leader saying 'in my many years of experience, there's no way to take that keep against 2 wb defenders'
i have no choice to follow cuz i can't lead with this english skill
i hope time will solve this, learn the new system damn leaders!

[Tesq]

the hole in the system which road is talk about and the problem which telen talk are all linked to the same thing, there is nothing that force you to be into 1 guild, rvr was designed as guild based; you need to make be part of a guild more relevant this way you will both stop zerg casually, and form propper groups, win/loose is not enought because zerg is a thing, if zerg would be countered by something that connect you to being part of a guild, like force multipler (banner etc) then it would be less an issue.

[Vandoles]

That's great, your points are valid and good.

However, you can't change human nature. Casual players will exist. People will continue to not be arsed to organize themselves, put in effort and in general half-ass things. You say they only sit in the keep and zerg BOs to farm kills and that this is not a premade vs pug issue. But how come order premades roam around and cause wb vs wb skirmrishes and your issue is that not enough people do that? Clearly it means there are not enough premades to fill rvr lakes.

So you have a choice - elegantly work around the problem by allowing such people to play, but at a disadvantage, or gear the game so they are not able to.

You say premades exist, order WBs exist (yes, two, the russian one and one more).

The issues you list -

1) order not accepting their role as aggressor when they should

2) people waiting around for keeps

3) boring waiting game

And many others, are a direct consequence of the game being done as you say it should be.

If you wish to force people into guilds, organise them and heavily punish those who do not (as is done and as the update did), that is the game you accept.

I'm not saying it's a bad game.

But you either accept that order will not naturally take up its role as an aggressor and there will be a waiting game until a solid organized WB comes, which you face, or you consider changes that balance it out so that those players who do not wish to go into guilds, put on voice chat instead of music and put effort in the game are not able to do so. As I've said, if you wish to gear the game towards hardcore, organized play - be prepared to face empty zones, waiting games and a lack of action. That is the natural consequence.

Since my point might be difficult to explain, let me add that there are plenty of elegant workarounds that do not in any way promote ****, casual play or reward a lack of effort.

It was fine for casuals in the previous build, without rewarding them too much, until the casuals oriented themselves en masse to order (the zerging faction) and the zerg grew too big.

[dur3al]

I believe that most people enjoyed previous oRvR system due to the fact that they had more liberty in doing things, even things such as ditching fights and switching zones, if they're bored of being farmed by premade warbands and groups they could at least go to a different zone and take a keep for their reward, and the system was in general much easier without so many things such as carriers, being locked to one zone, siege weapons, keep ranks, etc which people normally oppose to since its forcing them into a playstyle that may not fit with what they want to do.

I haven't played much or at all oRvR lately but during my extensive experience in this game I can see why people are unhappy.

[Vandoles]

I believe that most people enjoyed previous oRvR system due to the fact that they had more liberty in doing things, even things such as ditching fights and switching zones, if they're bored of being farmed by premade warbands and groups they could at least go to a different zone and take a keep for their reward, and the system was in general much easier without so many things such as carriers, being locked to one zone, siege weapons, keep ranks, etc which people normally oppose to since its forcing them into a playstyle that may not fit with what they want to do.

I haven't played much or at all oRvR lately but during my extensive experience in this game I can see why people are unhappy.

That's what I'm arguing for, but unfortunately we have the big problem balance discussions/decisions are taken in the forums which are exclusively populated with people of a single playstyle.

[roadkillrobin]

No, the problem is that it's the organized order warbands who activly chose not to attack. Coz the're no preassure for em to do so when they have the advantage. (Numbers, Keep Ranks) so they chose to farm kills instead. The PuG's just follows.
So the hole in the system is created when the supposedly stonger realm is chosing to take a defensive role instead of offensive. Coz the supposedly defensive realm don't have the numbers, keep ranks to have any chance of taking the enemy keep they are forced into a situation were they need to be defensive, while the dominant side can chose either one. And if they chose defensive it ressaults in a stand of thats leads to nowere. Hence why the dominant realms needs to be forced into aggressors. And if they don't they should be punished by giving the weaker side such an advantage that they are able to siege the enemy keep. So for example if you have a 4 Star keep, but chose not to seige the enemy keep. After X amount of time your keep will be degraded to 1 and giving the other realm the opportunnity to seige em. If you chose to stay at 3 stars however you risk loosing the arms race and having to defend your keep with 4-3 or 5-3 seige dissadvantagee. And if you keep gets degraded you risk having to defend 3-1, 4 -1 and even 5 -1.

[Vandoles]

No, the problem is that it's the organized order warbands who activly chose not to attack. Coz the're no preassure for em to do so when they have the advantage. (Numbers, Keep Ranks) so they chose to farm kills instead. The PuG's just follows.
So the hole in the system is created when the supposedly stonger realm is chosing to take a defensive role instead of offensive. Coz the supposedly defensive realm don't have the numbers, keep ranks to have any chance of taking the enemy keep they are forced into a situation were they need to be defensive, while the dominant side can chose either one. And if they chose defensive it ressaults in a stand of thats leads to nowere. Hence why the dominant realms needs to be forced into aggressors. And if they don't they should be punished by giving the weaker side such an advantage that they are able to siege the enemy keep. So for example if you have a 4 Star keep, but chose not to seige the enemy keep. After X amount of time your keep will be degraded to 1 and giving the other realm the opportunnity to seige em. If you chose to stay at 3 stars however you risk loosing the arms race and having to defend your keep with 4-3 or 5-3 seige dissadvantagee. And if you keep gets degraded you risk having to defend 3-1, 4 -1 and even 5 -1.

Which organised order premades are you talking about? Because I play exclusively order and there's two organised wbs - the Russians and the big alliance one. Both are not that organised and they're on every other day.

[roadkillrobin]

Beavers/Invasion, GA/Radiant Knights, FHRER are the ones we're running into the moast.