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[Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

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dontcomplainx
Posts: 91

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#141 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:00 pm

Tesq wrote:Main SM cc, aoe KB interrupt any cast/channeling. Every BO/SM have almost spamable aoe KB.... and avaibale after 2 sec of fight....

if you point out immunity then i point out look at target buff for immunity and kite till renown immunity gone. There is more than just push. Regardles rune priest can ress 5 ppl alltogheter, even if the bomb of destru is so strong you still have a second try by ista ress 5 ppl x party if you need

if you keep point out immunity from renown then remove these pesky renown skill since you alredy have a base working tool which is SM aoe KB (or any wp aoe KB). With out talk about wl aoe interrupt etc.
so you wanna counter destro moral gain with the SM aoe KB, really? :lol: :lol:

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#142 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:03 pm

I think he meant that the SM has a perfect counter to Raze since the punt will interrupt the channeling. Which is completely unrelated to the issue being discussed in this thread.

Now hear me out. This is still the balance forum, and people should stick to the rules. The issue being discussed is : relative balance of morale pump and drain abilities (viewtopic.php?f=96&t=17649&start=70#p198121)

This is not a thread to discuss Destro vs Order morale pumping; for that, we will need a new Balance discussion with a coherent proposal. I know the Proposals forum is locked atm, but i will see what can be done if some people indeed want to discuss this issue.

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Gerv
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#143 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:28 pm

It is clear from the moral break down, the generation of moral is favoured by destruction. As pointed out, having these abilities on 2 of the three tanks pushes them to the top of the list for small scale fighting. From here I see two solutions to the small scale.
1. A viable counter play including either; a) an ability to drain moral somewhat equal to the rate at which it can be generated which does not require a class to be completely dedicated to that action alone like the current SM ability.
b) a change in tactic requirement. For example the mitigation required on one class or requiring 2hd. A possibility, the chosen has to disrupt/dodge for their gain. Leaving it effective in large scale with aoe common but limited in 6v6.
c) genuine discussion regarding the possible removal from one of the two tanks, similar with 3x shatter on knight.

I see c) as very unlikely to happen. I also believe changing the moral abilities is not viable as it is the generation rate and possible ways to counter which are the issue. A) is my most favoured, as Jaycub posted many pages ago. This creates an option to add a useful utility to an under used spec and/or class.

If the solution and discussion is to be based around the rate per second that the tactics grant, I see the solution being working a system where moral three is not reached before a certain time when fighting 1-6 players possibly 6-12 as well to give order a larger window. For example compare time without tactics on order and find a middle ground. I no coder and not sure what is ultimately possible.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#144 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:06 am

AM moral bump is an out of party moral bump, if it not certain that can make for more moral bump ( so 1 or 2 can bump more ppl preserving spot for other tools aka class economy) it is at least certain that after the change to moral gain it got very badder as tactic so since it's an out of party bump and can stack also with BW one and give an advantage in term of spots the issue is bigger then what you think and since the skill is underperforming instead look at the small picture moral pump vs moral drain which only matter in quality and not in quantity as you cannot fit into 1 party/wb all the things you want with out have some draw back ( and also if WH aoe is a *** is not fault of destru have good moral bump; the wh issue could had been andressed better in "dragon gun thread " instead let ppl suggested a rewamp oriented to st .....another bad thing cuz every class should be viable in aoe just as much as st).

Order actually have a good aoe moral drain as destru have (exept for the hit from the back part) just aoe wh was never fixed. So fix AM bump and aoe wh becuase all the other tools(quanty) are note even comparable to have this tool working properly(i could accept a hit from the back for mara too in the eventuality but this just **** the aim the classes mara need to counter front line moral while wh need to counter backline destru healer moral bump.

also if 1 skill which is easy accessble is the problem but it have a "spamable counter" then there is no problem with the moral bump

idk why it should not be related just because the thread look to a too simple persective of
drain vs bump (just like saying +vs - with out take in consideration x,y,z and all other tools which fill the gap that order have passivly and i repeat passivly) because all the support in game is not simply balanced moral bump vs moral drain and not all is balanced inside party (aka AM).

So:

1-fix am moral tactic
2-fix classes which are supposed to have utility but are ignored because they lack that role potential (aoe wh)
3-assign a value to how much AM out of party moral bump is influential over the fight(aka 1 am = X party restricted moral bump)
4-then think about nerf destru moral bump
5-idk why all of you hate chosen this much; BO have a similar tactic and is a block based tank, the chosen on the other way is a parry based tank, it is not a pesky kobs with everything set to be efficent at 100%, it have a kind of drawback in mind but instead i always hear nerf chosen nerf chosen. Nerf chosen and all destru will re roll BO think a solution which is smarter please.
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Haojin
Posts: 1062

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#145 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:02 pm

Osred wrote:Nobody cares about the damage morales are doing. Its about the overabundance of morale pumps on destro that is causing major discrepancy between Order warbands and Destro Warbands. Currently it is Morale Bomb = Win.

In a wb v wb session how is it fair that Order when reaching m1, destro tanks are reaching m3/4 and everyone else their m2s allowing a MASSIVE advantage in straight fights. He who fires off the bomb first wins the first engaement and in most cases the rest.

I'm reposting Aza's writeup.
Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/s
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

Anyone reading this can see the obvious. Order had their crit nerfed. But crit can be mitigated, blocked, disrupted, dodged or even have their damage passively reduced through renown. Morale cannot. Why does destro have such a massive monopoly on morale gain.
Some people gonna blame me for being snob but i can't resist that bunch of fallacies.
From warband perspective:

You're totally mistaken mate. If you not care the damage morales, you gonna lose the fight. Simple. Just get used to play with more BW's instead of WL-WH-SW in warbands. You have some bad times because of marauders morale drain so what are you doing for slowing down marauders ? Just think and you'll find dozens of counterplay for it-Thanks god any order warbands not using these tools-. And i'm not happy about morale bombings btw. Unmitigable damage is just silly. Makes the fights really quick -around 25-30 seconds- %90 of the time . You can check some videos there: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtTblf ... wUYLWo96RQ

And you mentioned that for the warband vs warband situations, we never use our tanks M4 unless the fight contines like more than 1-2 minutes which is %1 of our encounters. It's a LIE destro warbands using their M4 every fight. Trust me, if we wait for M4's we'll lose the combat due to lack of burst damage of RAZE.

Another point you made which is not understandable: You saying order's crit tactics nerfed and damage abilities which benefits from crit defendable but morales not. So what's your point ? Order's early morale bomb potantial is incredibly better than destro which is NOT defendable. The only way to counter that burst damage from M2 is RAZE, not ID.

This is a FACT accept or not: Both realms got unique instruments, in a short term:

Destro: Better morale gain
Order: Better utility
Osred wrote: And why do you do that? Because currently morale bombing is the all and end all in wb v wb fights which destro have a massive advantage due to their morale gain.

As I said before. Orders tools can be mitigated with an array of tools and passives. Destro morales cannot be evaded, mitigated or avoided due to Order lacking tools to avoid it. People quote M4 morale drain yet Order never reaches these as the fight is finished by the time they reach m1, because destruction has already morale bombed the **** out of Order with m2's and M4s by then.
Wrong, simply wrong. As i said before order warbands have huge advantage on offensive morales due to BW M2 and they CAN'T mitigable. If you not using BW's in your warbands, don't expect the win the fights. It's not games fault, yours.
dontcomplainx wrote:
Haojin wrote: Use AM's to close the gap instead of spineless proposals.
So order needs to use a AM in every single party go close the gap? LMAO :lol: :lol:, Destro tanks are able to build morals faster and they dont need another class to help them out, thats the point, but order needs an AM in every single party for that :lol: :lol: :lol:
AM's morale pump is free for everyone, you can pump the morale out of the party.
dontcomplainx wrote:No the am is not the problem, the problem here is chosen, BO and etc able to gain moral way faster than order tanks, you are only saying that cuz you dont wanna see your chosen without that OP tatic :)
You already have enormous advantage of BW M2, are you joking or trolling ?
The morale bomb balanced around BW + AM morale pump = BO + CH + Shaman morale pump. As i said before using ID in warband vs warband is exteremly rare.
dontcomplainx wrote: hmm so tell me why Haojin ask to his tanks use moral tatic, jewels, belts with moral? a little bird just told me that :)1
Who are you and which guild are you in ? We tested tons of different compositions at the past, yes morale jewels was one of them which makes your tanks really weak.
Azarael wrote:When the entire point the Order posters are making is that Destruction have more and better tools to work with morale, and that this is the way to win mass engagements, I don't think your posts are helping to dispel that much, Thayli.

Also, can we not quote spoilers? It breaks the board.
The way to win the massive fights is = more burst damage aka morale bomb aka raze not ID rotation. We tried it before [ with morale jewelry ] and it's not feasible.
Tesq wrote:
exept that if the problem are bo/chosen bump and m2

then 1 SM can theorically interrupt all tanks using m2..

1 tank can interrupt 8x morales....
Thats why our tanks using RD before raze.

________________________________________________

My final thoughts about the morale gain/morales are:

1-The morale gain in this server prevents players to use M4 in warband vs warband situations.
2-The morale gain in this server prevents the classes which don't have a morale tactic, to usage of M2. [ unless they pumped by Shaman or AM]
3-Usage of M4 is exteremly rare except keep sieges or warcamp blockades.
4-Both realms are rely on early morales because of current morale gain.
5-We shouldn't talk about nerfing morale gain of BO+CH unless BW's morale gain nerfed.
6-Morale damage should be reworked.
7-Small scale is an another [long] story to balance in these terms.
8-We should list and discuss ALL unique tactics. morales, abilities if you decide to change a realms strongest side.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#146 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:20 am

Haojin wrote:
Tesq wrote:
exept that if the problem are bo/chosen bump and m2

then 1 SM can theorically interrupt all tanks using m2..

1 tank can interrupt 8x morales....
Thats why our tanks using RD before raze.
rd make you no immune to aoe intrrupt such wl one, another classes which is supposed to be relevant in aoe set up which is not (and have in fact a moral bump tactic and 1200 dmg moral 2).
So ye order have at least this 1 tool which destru cannot be immune of (and again if ppl blame rd so much then remove it for the damnit game i hate in paritular this renown skill as much as i hate speed proc over healers staff)

only interrupt aoe eff on order:
WL: echoing roar 15 feet interrupt
ENGI: flashbang grandade 20 feet interrupt

they have the tool in every aoe spec these classes can use and they don't care about rd, if ppl go and play full bw WB is fault of game balance over underperformign classes in AOE set up; not destru normal base wb tools. (regardless the point here should be nerf the 1200 dmg moral 2 not the morales bump, the aoe bomb and so the moral bump are a thing because these morales, these should get a severe rewamp either became channeling or get dmg cut half because most of the other morales work normaly even under being faster accessibale by moral bump)
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forsa
Posts: 139

Re: Morale Gain

Post#147 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:49 am

Azarael wrote:I consider the meta morale pumps to have an implementation which is akin to "Increases your morale regeneration rate by x% for 3 seconds" and so regardless of the current morale scaling, each meta morale pump tactic has a relative regeneration rate increase in line with Age of Reckoning's.
Can't wait this to happen. Would be great if the same " X% for 3 seconds" would be applied to morale drain, nullifying natural gain/making it drain for a short period of time. Those flat -/+x% belong to AoR.
This will not only balance both sides - increased usfulness of "+n morale every sec" items will open path to new equip setups.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#148 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:21 pm

The problem with these wierd Morale vallues is that the counters to the Morales drops, wich is moastly morales aswell is almoast impossible to pull of.

I can just say that Destro as a realm not only the CH/BO tanks are extremly more dependant on morales then order is. Any nerfs to the morale rates without adjustments made to order as a realm will put out the game out of ballance. The Morals are interlocked in the combats ballance system. Remove the Morale perks from Destro and order will win every single fight. Small scale, large scale. Everything.
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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#149 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:05 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:The problem with these wierd Morale vallues is that the counters to the Morales drops, wich is moastly morales aswell is almoast impossible to pull of.

I can just say that Destro as a realm not only the CH/BO tanks are extremly more dependant on morales then order is. Any nerfs to the morale rates without adjustments made to order as a realm will put out the game out of ballance. The Morals are interlocked in the combats ballance system. Remove the Morale perks from Destro and order will win every single fight. Small scale, large scale. Everything.
This would be true in a pre balance state RoR, I'm not even gonna bother listing off all the major nerfs made to order... virtually every grievance was addressed in nerfs in the past few months, even some out of left field nerfs to things like keg.

The only thing order has held onto at this point is RKD on SW/BW, and I'm sure that will get nerfed soon, at least the SW one.
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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

Post#150 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:26 pm

Jaycub wrote:
This would be true in a pre balance state RoR, I'm not even gonna bother listing off all the major nerfs made to order... virtually every grievance was addressed in nerfs in the past few months, even some out of left field nerfs to things like keg.

The only thing order has held onto at this point is RKD on SW/BW, and I'm sure that will get nerfed soon, at least the SW one.
Even with all the nerfs to order stuff in general **** hasnt changed, the only thing that has is shatter limbs nerf (which for what its worth i never did agree with), that should say enough in itself that even with the nerfs order are still in a better state than destro.

The original devs favoured order, its clear, take a look at random drop slayer gear, while every other class would get +31 in a stat slayers would get +35.
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