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[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

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Sy1ver
Posts: 24

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#81 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:17 pm

First of all this topic and other similar about game balance requires understanding game mechanics and wide over classes experience. Just to stop 10 pages of explaining it on every "Lets change X, im sure nothing bad will happen" comment. IMO best way to make it productive write a big article about how Mythic designed WHO, sides and classes conception and how the meta was born on it.

The biggest misunderstanding is people thinking the meta is the law. It's not, because meta - is just a best pick of classes and strategy in limited variations. You can't just come and say: "Im playing WH, no one wants to play with me in meta. Give me X and i'll fit for it" simply because when you changing game rules it changes the meta. It's simple - some classes always will be out of current meta, changes will throw them out.

I'll try to explain a couple things for this case.

1. WH and WL doesn't fit meta ( meaning end game ) because destro group setup provides much-much more defensive potential. This leads to long dogfights which WH and WL can not handle (AP pool, career mechanic, etc). However in pre endgame and high tier they are forming(!) burst meta, which is useable because of very low Effective HP Pool ( HP * mitigation ) at this gear level. Sever Nerve dmg is higher then 20% of average mdps HP pool? - Burst meta alive.

2. Directly about suggestions. Mostly on WH examples.

Ranged snare will not help you in 6v6, Which Hunter. You still not fit for it, you dont need it in dogfight, you cant use it to catch healer ( out of range, facing directy to you, you are dude-without-charge, he see what you are doing ) - obviously not about burst meta. Punt - and ur in 8-12 sec away of your target.
Spoiler:
Ranged snare will break low tier and pug balance. Able to perma snare 3 targets at 65ft range, breaking core kite mechanic, much easy to zerg in sc\rvr. Depreciates kiting skill by noskill uncounterable ability.

Note that - WE and WH is best mdps for solo\pug players even now.
Stackable melee snare is useless for 6v6 by same reasons. WH not fit meta for other reasons, WE fit meta even without melee snare.
Spoiler:
But it will affect on low tier gameplay, where WH\WE stackable dot is dealing useful damage. Much easy to gank kiters, doesn't have Cleansing Wind? - Die. Anyway not a best option if you want to bring new life for useless ability.
PS
Subforum need a big article about game mechanic and how it affect meta.

PUG, solo and "lower tier" arguments are banned in the balance forum - Azarael
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#82 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:05 pm

A tank can stay near you and reach you in 3 sec if it's near enough and the wh/WE kd the target for whole 3 sec+ have 30 feet of guard range; these are basically 60 feet that tank can cover also be enough near you away.
And 60 feets are more than enough for 1 tanks on 2 to actually came and snare 1 target after the wh/we had bury him over dots etc+ add a rdps.

If the role of wh/we is add a ranged snare to a melee party composition than it's not suppsoe to have a melee snare; also there are aoe snares which cover even graterdistance than 5 feet --> just bring the correct tank you know.

so:

guard is 30 feet+ distance that your tank can do in 3 sec kd+ also add that you can have 40 feets of snare to actually snare the target when it get up.

This is alredy fine, ppl want wh/we to be over the top and be splashed in every party composition rather than create a party around them.
Last edited by Tesq on Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tyr
Posts: 6

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#83 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:45 am

This is alredy fine, ppl want we/we to be over the top and be splashed in every party composition rather than create a party around them.
So whats the reason for wh/we if they should act like every other mdps? WH/WE are designed to be the "rogue" archetype class, but should act like a standard mdps? That makes both classes comepletely redundant. Especially when other mdps don't have to deal with position requirements.

They are the rogue archetype. Chasing a target, kill it, get away.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#84 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:18 am

Tyr wrote:
This is alredy fine, ppl want we/we to be over the top and be splashed in every party composition rather than create a party around them.
So whats the reason for wh/we if they should act like every other mdps? WH/WE are designed to be the "rogue" archetype class, but should act like a standard mdps? That makes both classes comepletely redundant. Especially when other mdps don't have to deal with position requirements.

They are the rogue archetype. Chasing a target, kill it, get away.
there is no reason, they shouldn't, they where created not for 6vs6 meta, they should be under heavy changes to act as the other melee which would make em rather a bad copy than something cool.

Assassination require confusion and so bigger number hence if you really want bring the 6vs6 discussion on the table and give em a role start as fix what is not working as intended due client explopit and make their unique tools better such change how the hide work.

Give em 5 sec snare would be totally usless as i described before in those situation in which a tank can be pretty much came and snare the target or rpds..... "etc"; and instead it would be overkilling in those situation where for ANY reason, dosen't really matter why (gear difference, alredy low healt due to rdps multiple hit etc) a wh/WE is able to solo kill 1 ppl dosent really matter if in 6vs6 or 12 vs 12 or if players are good or bad: These classes kill or not kill in their windows, balance this it's a lot hard but they need to act in their own window and not make that window even bigger. A melee snare would do that, a ranged snare dont. Targets have bit of time to break and keep move then suddenly another window open "when" we/wh can use the ranged snare and this is the second wh/we window to kill and actualy for other ppl in party to assist better. After 2 subsequentialy window a not dead target should be able to get a break.
A melee snare would create another window of action actually make 1 only big window till tanks arrive for snare for good.
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blaqwar
Posts: 471

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#85 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:07 pm

I think people are losing sight of what the changes are trying to accomplish. I'm pretty sure the change to the ranged snare isn't there to push WE/WH into the meta per say, I think they are there to allow people to run those two classes in 6vs6 or greater numbers and not have a frustratingly difficult time no matter what the meta is. In other words to bring them up in power in an objectively examined, competitive, group-based environment, regardless of the current meta.

Regardless of everyone running around with MDPS trains and double DoK comps that are meant to grind you down or running proc based tank groups, all careers should be able to accomplish some kind of viability in regards to the current meta. Of course there will always be a see-saw mechanic of power, or rather rock/paper/scissor meta balance where comps should be counterable by some other comp.

But it seems that the dev team has decided that the WE/WH are too far behind that curve of viability and want to change an ability that is practically useless in almost every environment in order to help them out (but not overbuff them in other scenarios of course). Small, well thought out changes to bring the class up to par are needed, it feels like the non-positional ranged snare on a cooldown is worth testing as one of the steps in that direction. It wouldn't take away the flavour of the class or turn them into yet another MDPS.

Annaise16
Posts: 341

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#86 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:27 pm

Some great comedy in here.

If a whole group (apparently a group of rdps) is kiting your entire group (of non-rdps) then you use the environment to break line-of-sight, get on your mounts, circle around behind them, use your tanks to cc them, and then attack with the rest of the group.

If this is a 6v6 where you aren't allowed to use those types of tactics, you just stand there and heal through the paltry rdps damage until both sides become bored of the farce.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that if you look up any video of 6v6s on youtube you will see that melee toons catch up to rdps and healers without assistance from ranged snares in every video on there.

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BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#87 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Annaise16 wrote:By the way, I'm pretty sure that if you look up any video of 6v6s on youtube you will see that melee toons catch up to rdps and healers without assistance from ranged snares in every video on there.
How/Reason?

Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#88 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:40 am

I think this discussion is angling towards a hardcore premade/6vs6 rebalancing.

I also think that that's a completely different discussion that goes to a COMPLETE rebalancing of the classes (I seem to recall the ideas on live of having 1 tree for more open, rvr combat, second tree for quick assassinations and third tree for tank killer, as opposed to one viable tree for each and two situational), which isn't something we can/should expect of this server.

The point of a fix to snap shot and throwing dagger is to get rid of the ability for anyone to escape WH/WE through no effort whatsoever, rendering WE/WH to either kill within their stun or die. Which ruins the gameplay. I think that's the key, the gameplay. WE/WH are meant to be quick, agile assassins, they were always meant to go in for a quick kill or to mess up the enemy lines - hence the Declare Anathema skill (and the WE equivalent that I forgot), which you get at r40 to allow you to do this against organized groups. The fact that anyone in the game, including big, lumbering BOs if they so desire, can pretty much kite you however they want, outmanuever you and all that ruins the gameplay and feeling of the WH/WE completely, at least for me.

Now, a change to the two skills might impact a little bit more and I am also kinda cautious in suggesting anything, but why not simply make it so that feinted positioning guarantees a slow? Feinted Positioning is a very important skill that you need to time and save properly. To have to use it to slow a target does not impact premades or small-scale fights too much, because you're blowing one of your best tools for a low-duration snare. On the other hand, it improves the gameplay of the singular WH/WE a lot, because you are actually able to fullfil your purpose in causing confusion among the enemies or sniping a quick kill before you run away - whether it's on the walls of a keep or an open confrontation where you skirt the opposing WB and pick at a healer in the back.

Also I'd like to ask, to avoid the problem of a 65 ft slow, why not lower the range a tiny bit? I don't think it matters that much, since even 35 yards will be adequate for being kited to death after you engage.

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#89 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:44 pm

I dont see how any of the suggested changes in this thread do anything other then make a class which is already strong against rdps even stronger, in a competitive situation a we/wh can put enough fear in the mind of rdps that they cant dps effectively, there group are always having to be def incase they are popped on and instantly knocked down and within the 3 seconds of a kd the rest of your team is on top of the rdps, this potential change screams (the dreaded) 1v1 experiences and as far as im aware 1v1 encounters should be ignored when it comes down to balancing.

The main argument/discussion here should be mobility not being better at catching rdps, its already hard enough for rdps to be effective in a competitive environment and some ppl want to make it even harder ?, a guaranteed snare with a range of 5 - 65ft will be near impossible for a rdps to kite a melee dps group, stealth is a much more effective tool then charge when trying to catch rdps fyi.

These potential changes will just shaft rdps even further down the line when it comes to competitive pvp.

If you want to address the mobility of we/wh then look at swift pursuit tactic for WE, mirror it to wh and allow it to cut the cooldown of fleet footed and sigil of sigmar in half.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#90 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:59 pm

Morf wrote:I dont see how any of the suggested changes in this thread do anything other then make a class which is already strong against rdps even stronger, in a competitive situation a we/wh can put enough fear in the mind of rdps that they cant dps effectively, there group are always having to be def incase they are popped on and instantly knocked down and within the 3 seconds of a kd the rest of your team is on top of the rdps, this potential change screams (the dreaded) 1v1 experiences and as far as im aware 1v1 encounters should be ignored when it comes down to balancing.

The main argument/discussion here should be mobility not being better at catching rdps, its already hard enough for rdps to be effective in a competitive environment and some ppl want to make it even harder ?, a guaranteed snare with a range of 5 - 65ft will be near impossible for a rdps to kite a melee dps group, stealth is a much more effective tool then charge when trying to catch rdps fyi.

These potential changes will just shaft rdps even further down the line when it comes to competitive pvp.

If you want to address the mobility of we/wh then look at swift pursuit tactic for WE, mirror it to wh and allow it to cut the cooldown of fleet footed and sigil of sigmar in half.
The idea of the change isnt a guaranteed snare, rather a snare as long as you're running away. That's also why I suggested feinted positioning to affect it - that means its a guaranteed snare for 10 seconds every minute. And you blow through your major damage dealing skill to use it - you even blow the ability to KD freely.

You say stealth is a much more effective tool than charge, but you miss the part where a rdps can simply...walk away from a stealther. Any WE/WH knows you need some luck to jump an rdps with stealth.

And although I agree with your reasoning of the swift pursuit tactic (it also adresses 1v1s adequately), I think snap shot and throwing dagger are not as gamebreaking as you might think. In a competitive environment it makes WH/WE even better rdps hunters than they are. But a group still has to gimp itself with a WE/WH to gain that advantage, which kind of evens it out.

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