[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

[Toldavf]

I somewhat fail to see how this will help the wh/we within a group environment. I would think any changes that are made should be to help the class do its job better within a group not to help it chase down fleeing players.

[Sy1ver]

Ok. This is pretty simple. Where is the problem exactly?

Im reading "Buff WE \ WH ranged snare" with real context "i want punish kiters". Let me explain.

Is WE need ranged snare in 6v6? - No. 6v6 is about melee trains. You have stealth for ranged setups anyway. So we are talking about 1v1 (low scale) OP personal issue, because WE is fine in low scale fights.

Is WE need melee snare? No. Because in 6v6 tanks doing this fine. And again we are talking about some sort of 1v1 or low scale issues.

So what problem we are trying to solve here? Except "kiters can kite".

[Sy1ver]

How about you dont put your own spin on other peoples words and stick to your own, we dont omit abilities because another class has access to them and likewise classes are not balanced according to things other classes/archetypes have access to.

If you want to discuss about major game changes you need to appeal on real problem. If no problem in certain game situation was described i can only guess. And as i said, if it's not about 6v6 issue, then it's about 1v1 or low scale issue, which is not permited as argument as i can see.

[Tesq]

no he is right, ppl are argumenting a 6vs6 problem basing their argument on a 1vs1 situatioin... why you need a snare on wh when you have other 3 ppl in the party that can snare?

if you are groupped then you CAN'T expect to solo bring down 1 healer or provide all cc tools to make your party reach it, you need others help and this include also a melee snare: 3 second of KD are more than enough for other ppl to close the gap, also a ranged snare last 10 seconds which are more than enough to close the gap on a cloth classes with out M2 etc.

PPl want to be able to solo cloth classes thus their motivation for this fix are not based on 6 vs 6 argument. Assist the other classes should provide the key to win or instead it should the distraction that the wh is by removing heals from 1 healer to he dosen't need a melee snare so that ppl after 3 sec of KD cannot even react---> this is the same mentality of ppl wanna "win" as dont let your opponent react at all that's only way to kill the fun in a game.
YOu basically want: opener, burn lies away , torment, finisher,HD x2--> reapet for in 3 sec of KD then snare the target and keep going on with this combo untilt he target dead to double heal debuff inc/out.....
In a real 6vs 6 situation you can be sure that the cloth class once it gets up he would alredy have the UI full of dots.

[sotora]

i am not talkign about 1 vs 1, idk how much the damages will increase to here to sov but there is the chance that like in live happened 3 sec of kd are enought to kill any cloth healer and i'm saying cloth so not wp/dok, cloth healer are the other one.

An AM etc is not a hard target if you have enough dps to bring it down in 3 sec where he cannot react a at all and it's cought totaly out of guard; add a rdps in assist 3 sec with a wh/we caming out of hide are more than enough if the healer is a bit behind and have no guard.
In live that was the norm you saw shammy pop like that all the time.

6vs6 argument it fallancy on hide anyway, the hide work better when the we/wh dont get see hide, with to low ppl the hide itself it's too easy to spot and too predictable by the tank movement so ye 6vs 6 it's a bad argument cuz just a rdps, it suppose to be more ppl in front line to make that hide tactic work.
Then it can work even in 6vs 6 but it would not be the same as in a 12 vs 12 or more enviroment.

I am talking about current situation with current gear. I haven't played live so I don't know how situation changes in higher gear/rr levels. I am sure it affects situation and overall balance, but I am sure this is true for all the classes and it affects all classes in all way or another. Besides ROR is already diffrent from live so who knows what balance patches there will be in future ROR.
Let's talk about current situation imho, and not speculate about future or past live server.

Last but not least. 6v6 or more is the requirements by developers that they stated for discussions in balance forums and besides WE/WH problem is their place in 6v6 and bigger fighting scenarios. Engi/Magus were adressed because of the same problem as far as I understand and propably BG will be adressed for the same reason one day or another too.

[noisestorm]

What i was wondering about is, that a lot of people always see you need a group for XYZ and that they will take care of it anyways. But what happens if we have for example a Slayer and WH as DDs, 2 Tanks and whatever 2 Healers. How are my tanks for example supposed to snare whatever target we want them to snare? Be it Healer, RangeDD or whatever. If you run with a WL/Mara, you could for example try and fecth someone or m1 them. If you have a SH,SW or BW you can range slow or Knockdown them for example. But what exactly does the WH/WE provide in terms of catching someone in a Party situation? If you as a WH/WE cannot gapclose (which you definitely wont be able to do with stealth alone eitherway, without completely overextending from your tank and getting insta killed as a response) you provide nothing. Also your Slayer here most likely cant charge in and leave your Tank behind either, its the same Problem as the WH has.


If WH/WE had a proper range slow here for this example you could potentially gapclose easier as a whole party to whatever target you picked and have noone explicitly overextend. And while it can be cleansed, you can regularly reapply the slow until either they have to engage, or you gradually manage to get into range for yourself.

Not saying my example is the best and only thing you will encounter, but its something that doesnt allow those statements of "But my team will take care of it for me" .

PS: everyone here try to avoid mud fights with each other. Next time before you are going to hit the submit button look at your post and see if it really is on topic and stop trying to undermine someone elses words, without properly debunking their posts first.

PPS: If you see flaws with my situation above or whatever, youre definitely free to tell me - in a proper way.

[saupreusse]

if a slow from the side is applied to the ability, we could go with the full 40%, but a cooldown would need to be applied. a spammable slow is not an option, because i believe it would be too strong (can't proof it, just a reasonable thought.) In a 6 v 6 environment, you shouldn't be the one opening the fight as wh/we. you should use your stealth and wait for another grp member to engage on a selected target within the 30 second time frame. it's wise to wait until one of the other party members has the attention. I can see how a slow can help with keeping up if the target runs away, and would like to see the skill finally being useful, but i believe in a party with a wh, you should pick other classes that have the possibility to cc the enemy, so you can clean up with the wh/we.

[Grugnir]

if a slow from the side is applied to the ability, we could go with the full 40%, but a cooldown would need to be applied. a spammable slow is not an option, because i believe it would be too strong (can't proof it, just a reasonable thought.) In a 6 v 6 environment, you shouldn't be the one opening the fight as wh/we. you should use your stealth and wait for another grp member to engage on a selected target within the 30 second time frame. it's wise to wait until one of the other party members has the attention. I can see how a slow can help with keeping up if the target runs away, and would like to see the skill finally being useful, but i believe in a party with a wh, you should pick other classes that have the possibility to cc the enemy, so you can clean up with the wh/we.

Finally some reasonable explaination. Especially last sentence. This game is about proper composition of the party - the composition determines your play style and tactic.

[Danielle]

For all the people saying it's possible to KD a target and kill them in 3s, yes it's possible in a 1v1. I have no issues with it in a 1v1. Yes you can use flee and AP pots in a 1v1. This whole board however is NOT about 1v1s. Nor do I give a bother about this slow from a 1v1 perspective, because the 1v1 engagement is entirely based of the stealth opener as Teefz explained.

My argument here is that WE/WH have little catch potential in a group fixing/balancing this skill could help them in that regard. No you cannot burn a target in 3s in a 6v6 where that target is properly healed and their tanks react quick enough. If this was the case every single group would be running WH/WE because they would be bloody amazing. Yes, you can do it in a PuG scenario every now and again where nobody is paying attention. I am down for a skill with a cooldown with a 40% slow from the sides or behind, or a reduced slow from the sides (20%). They both make the skill do something in a group context, what would actually work better is a matter of testing imo, but I prefer the 40% slow with a cd, because it's more skill based. You have a decision when to use it and you can waste it badly and it's more impactful when used correctly and it's also more impactful to face forward and dodge the effect.

PuG and 1v1 arguments however do not belong here, so please argue as if it was a real group fighting a real group, kkthx.

[bloodi]

I think most people point is not that you can burn that target in 3s, is that once you do so, a tank will snare the target, thats what tanks are for.

So if anything, this buff is mostly based around the concept of a WH/WE not having a group to support him.