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[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

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sotora
Posts: 320

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#21 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:49 am

Azarael wrote:Opened for discussion.

For 4), Envenomed Blade and Fervor could serve as hosts for a stacking slow.
Envenomed Blade won't be used (aside of situational use). With how WE/WH classes are in T4 enviroment they cannot afford to waste GCDs on spamming such ability. Changes made to ROR in last month or so make direct damage & hit fast&flee tactic even more important than was before. So any stacking slows or 40% snare chance, etc won't be making me use EB more. Unless I am in suicidal mood.

Making Throwing Dagger apply 40% also from the sides would be welcome change. Small improvement but very welcome, althrough it would not really adress issues that are plaguing those classes. (if we want WE/WH to be more than solo ganker, 3rd rate melee choice class)


On a side note: I think what hurt WE/WH and make them bottom tier mdps for groups is overall opinion that WE/WH should be only this squischy stealthy glass cannon ganker/suicidal class and nothing else. Thing is T4 is very diffrent enviroment from T1 and this "go behind enemy lines to kill healer" approach & expectations is silly and in the end it is what is making them least viable mdps choice for group.

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Annaise16
Posts: 341

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#22 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:15 am

Personally, I don't think that WH/WE need better snare. They both have abilities that can combat kiters in 1v1 and its hard to see why they need a better snare for group play.

But if you want to give them a better snare, why not make SS/TD an ability that can be used at 0-65ft instead of the current 5-65ft range. That way, if they want to snare an opponent, they can do so directly out of stealth or following a knockdown. The positional requirement shouldn't be a problem in those situations.


PS. A reduction in cast-time of SS/TD would complement this change.

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Grugnir
Posts: 140

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#23 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:48 am

Is it wise to give WH/WE better snare? The opening KD is, in most cases, enough to nuke any kiter in seconds. Also don't forget that self punt can be used offensively (if someone says that you can't punt without another target near I say Devs dont care about 1v1 situations). I've seen many good WH/WE self punting towards their target and nuking them.

Blaming good players for strafing... well the way things are going soon every mdps will blame kiters for kiting in general.

If you really want to give WH/WE additional snare Annaise16 proposal seems ok.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#24 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:15 am

Annaise16 wrote:Personally, I don't think that WH/WE need better snare. They both have abilities that can combat kiters in 1v1 and its hard to see why they need a better snare for group play.

But if you want to give them a better snare, why not make SS/TD an ability that can be used at 0-65ft instead of the current 5-65ft range. That way, if they want to snare an opponent, they can do so directly out of stealth or following a knockdown. The positional requirement shouldn't be a problem in those situations.


PS. A reduction in cast-time of SS/TD would complement this change.
Please explain in more detail - what abilities do WH/WE have to solve the problem that the OP mentions, and how should they be used? You are simply contradicting at the moment.

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Grugnir
Posts: 140

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#25 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:23 am

Annaise16 wrote:Personally, I don't think that WH/WE need better snare. They both have abilities that can combat kiters in 1v1 and its hard to see why they need a better snare for group play.
Why an explaination is even needed? We don't care about 1v1.

I know the question wasn't directed at me but..
So far I've seen WH/WE using the following abilities to get kiters:
1. Stealth+KD
2. Self-punt+KD
3. Flee+double AP potion (even combined with RD)
4. Current snare

I'd say the above would result in most kiters being killed. And this is still mostly in 1v1 situations (which I was under the impression we're not discussing or adressing).

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#26 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:28 am

If I tell someone an explanation is needed, it is needed.

The foundation of these discusssions is that we make arguments for and against. I don't give a damn about 1on1 and I wasn't asking him about 1on1 - that was implied. He stated it was "hard to see why they need a better snare for group play." That is a contradiction and an opinion, but not an argument. He needs to justify that opinion with some arguments and facts.

Two of your provided suggestions for gap closing / performance blow defensive or potentially defensive cooldowns (DA/AE, Flee, RD, AP pots). I'm not sold on those for group play, personally. Add to this that the current ranged snare is defeated by strafing away (at full speed I might add while retaining the ability to cast behind) and previous points made about WH/WE not having a melee snare.

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Grugnir
Posts: 140

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#27 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:35 am

Azarael wrote:Two of your provided suggestions for gap closing / performance blow defensive cooldowns (DE/EA, Flee, RD, AP pots). I'm not sold on those for group play, personally.
Why are they not valid for group play in your opinion? Can you explain?

For group play I will only mention: two rKD on order side (since you're in a group you can have access to them), rStun from RP and Zel - just examples. In a properly balanced group there are numerous options to catch a kiter.

That's the beauty of Warhammer. None of the classes have it all (high burst, super cc, thick armor, mobility). We have to complete each other. Balance our groups to fit best for combat.

[Edit] agreed on snare not affecting strafing target. Keep in mind rdps will strafe mostly to be able to cast skills while moving (it's kiting). Add a melee snare then. I still don't think it's necessary in group play. There will be always alt least one class with range snare, stun, KD to do the job for WH/WE.
Last edited by Grugnir on Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#28 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:46 am

My concern there is in the recommendation that people use their escapes on gap closing (especially DA/AE) when they're playing a class in light armor with restricted in-combat mobility options compared to the medium armored classes. Stealth can be used as a gap closer, but not as an escape if under fire due to setback mechanics. The additional consideration is that without a snare of their own, WE/WH lack the ability to stick to a target unless someone else provides the snare.

The tradeoff should be in my opinion that WE/WH lack a melee snare and some mobility when actually in melee combat in exchange for having a snare that actually works in some way against ranged characters, especially given the direction of the M1 root thread, in which players within are very passionate about the need for the M1 root (particularly on Destruction) to trash ranged. If WE/WH had a reliable means of doing this which were not defeated by pressing A or D, it would not be necessary to defend FoF / Ensnare to such a level.

I'll also add that my opinion on WE in particular is quite influenced by Bretin immediately dropping the WE when Witchbrew was fixed.

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Grugnir
Posts: 140

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#29 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 am

So i.e. SS/TD snare effect if target is hit from behind or side + 5sec CD ? So it's not spammable since you can use it on the move. Would that serve the purpose in your opinion?

[edit] without modifying the original range
It would help with strafing players 100%. But I must point out that it will be a huge 1v1 buff for WE/WH - something that is not welcome.

P.S. Let's not mention players like Bretin ;)

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#30 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:43 am

Grugnir wrote:So i.e. SS/TD snare effect if target is hit from behind or side + 5sec CD ? So it's not spammable since you can use it on the move. Would that serve the purpose in your opinion?

[edit] without modifying the original range
It would help with strafing players 100%. But I must point out that it will be a huge 1v1 buff for WE/WH - something that is not welcome.

P.S. Let's not mention players like Bretin ;)
I'm not sure about the CD. The snare can still be defeated by turning into it as it's about to hit you, though that is ping dependent and itself slows the target down some. It might be better to use a 20% snare from the side but still have no CD, or to go with a 3s CD.

It might well be a huge 1on1 buff, but we've made our decision and it's stated within the rules, too. 1on1 will be cast to the wayside.

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