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Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 979

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#151 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:02 pm

Oldschool wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:26 pm ....tbh i dont get all this discussion we have since years with the same problems (and too many skill changes from DEVs in my opinion)....easy solution on all this for all and everybody and all times:

Make real Mirror classes.

Just switch the skills from Order to Destro or Destro to Order or set up some new for all and we talk about same business and we dont have to break our nerves with unballancing.
No one wants exact mirrors. This game has never had exact mirrors. Go play WoW or some other generic class game.

Faction indirect mirros can be (and are) fun without one side being over powered. Yeah it takes some work but I think most ppl play this game bc what it is, not because they want 100% mirror someday.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#152 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:41 pm

Spoiler:
Dondabon wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:55 pm Where are don't really follow logic is:
1) It was supposed to be mirror/counter to Knight Dirty Tricks tactic (mentioned by Secrets few times in explanation), but Knights do not lose anything for this tactic to proc, while Chosen is supposed to lose tankiness in order for this to be effective? For DT Knights are specking full tank, while it is expected from Chosen to drop at least 15-30 Renown Points to make this tactic somewhat work - not really fair in my opinion
2) "On taking crit damage" seems to be the issue, while "when you block" on knight spec is not? This doesn't seem consistent to me, as you can argue Knight is much more likely to block than Chosen is to be crit (depending on gear)
3) It is expected from Chosen to be active ability requiring unique stile of play/gear/spec, while this is not the case at all for Knight - also not consistent and not worth that 2% additional reduction in my opinion

Changes I find would be more fair are potentially:
1) Make this tactic give crit as well. It would make it a bit too potent and potentially require to remove other 15% flat crit one, but I don't see how is it fair to require Chosens to either drop Tankiness, or equip 2 tactics instead of 1 just to overcome that 2% additional Crit reduction (check Secrets logic in first post, I like it - tactics are balanced based on Renown point cost)
2) Make it also proc based on def stat - block/parry/dodge&disrupt - for me this makes much more sense. I see that you guys intended it to be both offensive and defensive tactic, so block wouldn't work here. For me proc on parry makes most sense, as it is def stat for 2hand tanks
1. Chosen doesnt "have to" lose tankiness at all to use this tactic : even with full crit reduction, you WILL BE crit fairly regularly by high critters like BW (~80% full combustion) and SW (wich can go over 60% with tactic). SO it really doesnt matter if you get -20 or -30% chance to be crit versus those two (very common) classes. Other dps may still crit you around 5-15% of the time on average.

2. The chosen tactic can be used with 2H, while dirty trick cannot. More polyvalence for chosen, with another tactic not tied to shield.

3. Chosen buff will likely be 10% anticrit, while DT is only 5% crit for party. Yes healing does profit from DT, let's call is fair despite chosen being with slight advantage here vs incoming damage.

4. If you want a counter to Dirty trick, simply reverse the bonus (-5% to be crit for group members, 10s, on block) and let's call it a deal. ;)

Sigford
Posts: 37

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#153 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:56 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:41 pm
Spoiler:
Dondabon wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:55 pm Where are don't really follow logic is:
1) It was supposed to be mirror/counter to Knight Dirty Tricks tactic (mentioned by Secrets few times in explanation), but Knights do not lose anything for this tactic to proc, while Chosen is supposed to lose tankiness in order for this to be effective? For DT Knights are specking full tank, while it is expected from Chosen to drop at least 15-30 Renown Points to make this tactic somewhat work - not really fair in my opinion
2) "On taking crit damage" seems to be the issue, while "when you block" on knight spec is not? This doesn't seem consistent to me, as you can argue Knight is much more likely to block than Chosen is to be crit (depending on gear)
3) It is expected from Chosen to be active ability requiring unique stile of play/gear/spec, while this is not the case at all for Knight - also not consistent and not worth that 2% additional reduction in my opinion

Changes I find would be more fair are potentially:
1) Make this tactic give crit as well. It would make it a bit too potent and potentially require to remove other 15% flat crit one, but I don't see how is it fair to require Chosens to either drop Tankiness, or equip 2 tactics instead of 1 just to overcome that 2% additional Crit reduction (check Secrets logic in first post, I like it - tactics are balanced based on Renown point cost)
2) Make it also proc based on def stat - block/parry/dodge&disrupt - for me this makes much more sense. I see that you guys intended it to be both offensive and defensive tactic, so block wouldn't work here. For me proc on parry makes most sense, as it is def stat for 2hand tanks
1. Chosen doesnt "have to" lose tankiness at all to use this tactic : even with full crit reduction, you WILL BE crit fairly regularly by high critters like BW (~80% full combustion) and SW (wich can go over 60% with tactic). SO it really doesnt matter if you get -20 or -30% chance to be crit versus those two (very common) classes. Other dps may still crit you around 5-15% of the time on average.

2. The chosen tactic can be used with 2H, while dirty trick cannot. More polyvalence for chosen, with another tactic not tied to shield.

3. Chosen buff will likely be 10% anticrit, while DT is only 5% crit for party. Yes healing does profit from DT, let's call is fair despite chosen being with slight advantage here vs incoming damage.

4. If you want a counter to Dirty trick, simply reverse the bonus (-5% to be crit for group members, 10s, on block) and let's call it a deal. ;)
So you're saying this tactic is useless? Also to proc it reliably you either have to go 2h or give up a lot in terms of gear that help tankiness such as 7 piece Sov. Also to get proper crit as S/S to stay tanky in WB play you have to go out of your way to get 2% crit ranked solo event item PLUS use the %crit talisman on sentinel jewel. All while still having to pump LOADS of renown points into crit chance. The most reliable way to even use this tactic is 2h build with Oppressing Blows which then takes another tactic for Flawless armor to remain at 0% crit while being able to pump full crit renown, cap deft defender/parry and then a few points left over to spread out among wound/initiative etc. With this option in WB play you are 100% less tankier with the changes to guard. Against any half brained WB comp from order you will be melted by slayers, BWs, SWs etc. all to give just -10% crit chance to 5 people.
Dachosen - 8X Chosen
<Ere We Go> - GM
The NoBodies -Alliance

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Oglaf
Suspended
Posts: 279

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#154 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:00 pm

Sigford wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:56 pm
Fenris78 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:41 pm
Spoiler:
Dondabon wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:55 pm Where are don't really follow logic is:
1) It was supposed to be mirror/counter to Knight Dirty Tricks tactic (mentioned by Secrets few times in explanation), but Knights do not lose anything for this tactic to proc, while Chosen is supposed to lose tankiness in order for this to be effective? For DT Knights are specking full tank, while it is expected from Chosen to drop at least 15-30 Renown Points to make this tactic somewhat work - not really fair in my opinion
2) "On taking crit damage" seems to be the issue, while "when you block" on knight spec is not? This doesn't seem consistent to me, as you can argue Knight is much more likely to block than Chosen is to be crit (depending on gear)
3) It is expected from Chosen to be active ability requiring unique stile of play/gear/spec, while this is not the case at all for Knight - also not consistent and not worth that 2% additional reduction in my opinion

Changes I find would be more fair are potentially:
1) Make this tactic give crit as well. It would make it a bit too potent and potentially require to remove other 15% flat crit one, but I don't see how is it fair to require Chosens to either drop Tankiness, or equip 2 tactics instead of 1 just to overcome that 2% additional Crit reduction (check Secrets logic in first post, I like it - tactics are balanced based on Renown point cost)
2) Make it also proc based on def stat - block/parry/dodge&disrupt - for me this makes much more sense. I see that you guys intended it to be both offensive and defensive tactic, so block wouldn't work here. For me proc on parry makes most sense, as it is def stat for 2hand tanks
1. Chosen doesnt "have to" lose tankiness at all to use this tactic : even with full crit reduction, you WILL BE crit fairly regularly by high critters like BW (~80% full combustion) and SW (wich can go over 60% with tactic). SO it really doesnt matter if you get -20 or -30% chance to be crit versus those two (very common) classes. Other dps may still crit you around 5-15% of the time on average.

2. The chosen tactic can be used with 2H, while dirty trick cannot. More polyvalence for chosen, with another tactic not tied to shield.

3. Chosen buff will likely be 10% anticrit, while DT is only 5% crit for party. Yes healing does profit from DT, let's call is fair despite chosen being with slight advantage here vs incoming damage.

4. If you want a counter to Dirty trick, simply reverse the bonus (-5% to be crit for group members, 10s, on block) and let's call it a deal. ;)
So you're saying this tactic is useless? Also to proc it reliably you either have to go 2h or give up a lot in terms of gear that help tankiness such as 7 piece Sov. Also to get proper crit as S/S to stay tanky in WB play you have to go out of your way to get 2% crit ranked solo event item PLUS use the %crit talisman on sentinel jewel. All while still having to pump LOADS of renown points into crit chance. The most reliable way to even use this tactic is 2h build with Oppressing Blows which then takes another tactic for Flawless armor to remain at 0% crit while being able to pump full crit renown, cap deft defender/parry and then a few points left over to spread out among wound/initiative etc. With this option in WB play you are 100% less tankier with the changes to guard. Against any half brained WB comp from order you will be melted by slayers, BWs, SWs etc. all to give just -10% crit chance to 5 people.
It is pretty much limited to an off-tank Chosen in a highly organized 6v6 premade (i.e ranked scenario) and even then the worthiness of picking it over other tactics are highly questionable.

carthagerising
Posts: 101

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#155 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:13 pm

were testing it in city wbs when we can, only one city so far against a moderate team so not really any real data.

you can build around it but u have to set up specifically for it and sure you can keep it up reliably. we need to see if its worth it thou and only time and testing will tell. but requirements are fairly high, in terms of party set up, tactics and gear/stat distribution.

still would prefer crippling strikes back honestly but im open to be persuaded and its been made fairly clear we wont be seeing CS again.

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Dondabon
Posts: 27

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#156 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:18 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:41 pm
Spoiler:
Dondabon wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:55 pm Where are don't really follow logic is:
1) It was supposed to be mirror/counter to Knight Dirty Tricks tactic (mentioned by Secrets few times in explanation), but Knights do not lose anything for this tactic to proc, while Chosen is supposed to lose tankiness in order for this to be effective? For DT Knights are specking full tank, while it is expected from Chosen to drop at least 15-30 Renown Points to make this tactic somewhat work - not really fair in my opinion
2) "On taking crit damage" seems to be the issue, while "when you block" on knight spec is not? This doesn't seem consistent to me, as you can argue Knight is much more likely to block than Chosen is to be crit (depending on gear)
3) It is expected from Chosen to be active ability requiring unique stile of play/gear/spec, while this is not the case at all for Knight - also not consistent and not worth that 2% additional reduction in my opinion

Changes I find would be more fair are potentially:
1) Make this tactic give crit as well. It would make it a bit too potent and potentially require to remove other 15% flat crit one, but I don't see how is it fair to require Chosens to either drop Tankiness, or equip 2 tactics instead of 1 just to overcome that 2% additional Crit reduction (check Secrets logic in first post, I like it - tactics are balanced based on Renown point cost)
2) Make it also proc based on def stat - block/parry/dodge&disrupt - for me this makes much more sense. I see that you guys intended it to be both offensive and defensive tactic, so block wouldn't work here. For me proc on parry makes most sense, as it is def stat for 2hand tanks
1. Chosen doesnt "have to" lose tankiness at all to use this tactic : even with full crit reduction, you WILL BE crit fairly regularly by high critters like BW (~80% full combustion) and SW (wich can go over 60% with tactic). SO it really doesnt matter if you get -20 or -30% chance to be crit versus those two (very common) classes. Other dps may still crit you around 5-15% of the time on average.
I don't think you read new changes well - now it is "Any time you critically hit an enemy". If it was still "Any time you receive critical damage" I wouldn't have any objections.
Zealot 84, Sorc 83, BG 83, WP 50+

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#157 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:00 pm

Dondabon wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:18 pm I don't think you read new changes well - now it is "Any time you critically hit an enemy". If it was still "Any time you receive critical damage" I wouldn't have any objections.
Yes, my bad. I was still into the "get critted" in my mind, sorry. :/

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#158 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:34 am

If the tactic proves useful would be interesting to see if 2H chosen would find a place in a warband/city (ST group). Since it would be the spec with the higher chance to proc it.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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Rekoom
Posts: 109

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#159 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:57 am

zulnam wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:34 am If the tactic proves useful would be interesting to see if 2H chosen would find a place in a warband/city (ST group). Since it would be the spec with the higher chance to proc it.
You wouldn't use this tactic in an ST group because the ST group is typically not under a lot of focus fire which is what this tactic helps to do (reduce incoming damage in heavy fights).

I honestly don't see a use for this tactic at all.
Rekoom - 80+ BO

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Orgruk
Posts: 251

Re: Developer Musings: An Explanation of Recent Occurances & How We'll Fix Them

Post#160 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:08 am

Oglaf wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:35 pm Honestly, if they do this how could it be anything but that meme-y "Order bias" but for real this time?
No need for that, just look at the posts that are closed within minutes/hours on the forum like this one without any word ;)
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