[FEEDBACK] Keep Siege Feedback, Mk. II

[Genisaurus]

I have locked the last thread, because over the last several patches it became increasingly irrelevant, and the feedback less useful to us and confusing to other players - i.e. complaints about door regen three patches after it was removed.

So once again, we have made several changes to the health of doors at a keep, the damage that rams deal, and the health of all siege weapons. Accordingly, I would like to collect some feedback from the community regarding these changes.

DO NOT POST FEEDBACK ON KEEP SIEGES BEFORE THE JUNE 11th, 2016 PATCH.

Please share your experiences with keep sieges, and try to cover the following points:

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
6. As an attacker, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?

Please note that this is not a place to discuss the following:

1. New artillery mechanics - these are incomplete
2. Artillery damage types or values - these will be tweaked in the future
3. The current style or structure of the RvR campaign

[Lileldys]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Feel like its too quick personally. We heard that siege started in Dragonwake, and booked instantly, across the map to our keep, and outer was down. Otherwise, feels a little quick, not that epic.

2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
Whats going on with the blocking from melee? Otherwise, feels fine.

3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Seems fine, its pretty easy to time the oil and not get caught.

4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
AoE Cannon stacking hurts a lot. And still funnelling.

5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
I feel in some zones, its easier to reach that others. Dragonwake keeps in particular take a long time to reach.

6. As an attacker, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
AoE Cannon stacking in a guild to break the funnels/tankwalls. Single target cannons to deal with cannons/rdps/oil. Still really need a proper Morale push to break through.

7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?
Easier to defend, Free siege, oil, buyable siege at keep, 1 entrance all contribute to this.

[Jaycub]

>7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?

Easier to defend by far, being an attacker is basically like landing on Omaha beach. And I really I don't have a problem with this but when defenders are getting virtually the same loot (less risk same reward) as attackers it really encourages people just sitting on keeps or letting the other realm push, not to mention it's almost guaranteed the defenders will farm many times over more kills than the attackers in a siege. There needs to be a greater incentive to attack than defend.

Even if the act of attacking a keep was perfectly in balance with defending the current BO management system again heavily favors the defenders. Moving to a buff/mechanical based system with captured BO's would be superior imo. For example having control of armory grants 25% increase siege damage, having martyrs square opens up access to flying to your keep from the WC, etc...


Edit: as an anecdote of something I see all the time in NA here is this screen shot...

http://www.mediafire.com/view/jts2i7v0m ... -50-34.png

What is happening here and happens all the time is there is about a WB on each side and the attackers basically know they are fighting a losing battle taking BO's and the defenders know they should just wait in the keep for the farm.

So in t4 chat you see people saying "don't take BO's let them hit the door" etc... the other realm you have people doom and glooming, and it culminates in a scene like my pic where the other realm just jerks off at a distance and stares while some **** talk is exchanged and RvR dies for the most part until someone gets a hairbrained idea to try and attack again.

Maybe this isn't a problem in EU prime but ya #prayforNA

[Razielhell]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Honestly i believe this is the sweet spot for Ram Damage and Door HP adjustments.Not too long not too fast...! It is balanced as it is now.
3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Looks good.
5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Its ok.
7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?
Its balanced...its almost the same thing...both have their advantages and their weaknesses. But overall feels balanced.

[navis]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Not bad, I would say that player damage is quite a bit too high vs the doors, solution - increase the mitigation factors on the door vs players
2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
not bad
3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
not bad
4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
Oil, Door Funnel, respawn in keep (including CDT) while outer still up.
5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
not sure - it's not a issue atm unless something funny is happening (like attackers pulling the Lord early)
6. As an attacker, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
melee through doors, RDPS cover all along the castle walls, pull-type abilities (not my class personally)
7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?
not sure

other notes - I have noticed that melee didn't seem to be coming inside the keeps, at least in organized manner - this is ofter very powerful attack vs small defense.
BW Fieryblast + Flashfire are over-performing in funnel areas (proc cooldown seems bugged)

[flintboth]

4- Oil seems to be the better tool for defend but the tri-barrels canons can really harassing players and healer in first i think, is a nice tool to put the healers tired (+ rez players under oil)

6- The tri-barrels canons can help to push a tank wall out of a funnel keep but need to be coordinate with players, the ram working find with 4 players on.

8. For a first impression about a fight involving the equal forces, attack and defense seems feasible.
The tools (guns, oil, doors ...), their resistance seems to fit and not be decisive for the course of the confrontation, only their proper use coupled with the good organization of the players seems to allow the victory in defense as attack.
RvR tools seems for the moment to not put the players and the strategy in the background to catch and defend Keep or refining of their mechanics seems to move in this direction.
The defense in an equal force confrontation remains privileged and easier because given the rewards (for the loot bag above) and defenders are united and massaged in the Keep, in most cases the Battle Objectives are retaken only when attackers have been definitively rejected, the defense does not require any actual organization.
Attackers, in equal numbers with defenders, are divided on the RvR they must maintain the area and BO's against Groups (FG) of harassment and harassment of mavericks (Solo).
Only a tick on the locks of BO's seems to bring back defenders players for the control management of the RvR area and removal the loot bag from the keep tick defense only a RR/inf/xp tick (and I don't know for three or two emblems or medaillons) or if you want more defenders on BO's give one medaillon for one BO retaken + little tick...

[Cimba]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
It feels about right at the moment because it allows smaller organized groups to take keeps if the opponent doesn't react. On the other hand in massiv keep fights the duration can be extended quite a bit.

2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
The main issue here is, I guess, that the artillery is placed out of range of each other. As a defender most of the artillery was placed on top of the inner keep. Which means the same few people will use it during an entire siege. Maybe restrict the area were siege weapons can be build or reduce the range so they cant reach the outer door from the inner keep.

3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Didn't have one, yet.

4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
That you respawn within the keep which allows you try different approaches to break a siege without any real risk.
Door funnel is still very hard to break. Even as a solo BW(!) I could do my part because the siege weapons couldn't/wouldn't cover the entire courtyard.

5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Yes, if you got notice as soon as they were at the outer door.

7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?
When the numbers are low, less than 1 wb, I think it about even because you can still get through the door funnel. With higher numbers the attacker needs way more coordination.

[Eathisword]

>7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?

Easier to defend by far, being an attacker is basically like landing on Omaha beach. And I really I don't have a problem with this but when defenders are getting virtually the same loot (less risk same reward) as attackers it really encourages people just sitting on keeps or letting the other realm push, not to mention it's almost guaranteed the defenders will farm many times over more kills than the attackers in a siege. There needs to be a greater incentive to attack than defend.

This mainly is correct from my pov. On order there are entire guild that spam T4 chat with ''let em attack, we'll farm gear and bags''. It is no doubt the same on destro.

Now that RR cap is lifted, there really is no need for big loot roll to incentivize defense, as defender get a ton more renown then the attacker by 1- getting about 3x more kills (what i saw on enemy killcounter during 5-6 keep siege yesterday), 2- getting big bonus to renown by fighting at keep, 3- defense tick award renown/influence all the time, offense capture award influence/renown on zone lock only, iirc.

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Seemed about right. Although player damage is really high. We took CW keep without ram from 45% to 0% in a matter of 5-10 minutes (ram was bugged, but still).

2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
Oil seems to easy to destroys. It litteraly blows up in about 10 sec under FF.

3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Would've no problem it having no CD. Better money sinks. With oil doing physical damage now, it is not a major issue. As a tank, i could take a couple of hit even without heals and live.

4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
BO... have a way too long lockout timer. Cap a far far one, if enemy don'T already have a roaming group close, its GG. Everything is stalled for 15 minutes. IMO, reducing BO lock out timer would 1- not give the attacker 15 minutes of free zerg/funnel on the keep. 2- maybe promote more roaming as it would be a constant danger to lose them BO.

5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Yes.

6. As an attacker, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
Ram actually kills the door. The 15 minutes of free keep zerg because of lockout timer on BO being so high, you can take out outer and a good chunk of inner before enemy can recap some BO. Oil dies really fast.

[Morf]

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Seems to be in a good state, not to long not to easy.

2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
Too easy, will come to this at the end of my post.

3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
Seems fine.

4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
Best tools are to set up 4 aoe siege cannons and concentrate fire at the same spot.

5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Yes.

6. As an attacker, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
Same as defending, set up aoe siege cannons and concentrate fire at the samespot.

7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?
Defend but can depend which i will explain below.

The only 2 problems i have right now are linked to siege.
Firstly not being able to repair so when your siege is taking damage you may aswell just give up and let it die.
Secondly siege not decaying over time, this could be a huge problem and was yesterday defending north keep in CW some epic troll set up 4 siege weapons behind the keep out of the way so we had no available siege to defend the outer until a gm ported in and destroyed them.

Overall a big improvement from the previous keep siege mechanics.

[Akalukz]

I agree with some and not others.

1. Did the doors take too long to destroy? Were they too easy?
Seemed about right to me, better than anything so far

2. Did you find that artillery is too hard to destroy? Too easy?
Biggest issue here is like morf said, not decay timer, although I don't think it was a troll that setup the siege, but rather someone trying to stop a BO take behind the keep. Should have an inactivity timer or something to destroy. This could become an issue with xrealming/grief etc. Maybe Oil and Ram should have some sort of buff before taking damage, currently oil drops extremely fast.

3. Does the cooldown on deploying an oil or ram seem like too long? too short?
About right imo

4. As a defender, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
I think this is for both defend / attack siege weapons are really strong, although not being able to "repair" them is a bit much. In 3 seiges yestserday the top kills in zone were all manned siege weapons / oil.

5. As a defender, do you feel like you had enough time to reach a besieged keep to defend it?
Yes for the most part, DW and TM is tough though just because of zone setup.

6. As an attacker, what do you feel are the best tools at your disposal?
See above (4)

7. Do you feel it is currently easier to attack or defend a keep, against an equal number of opponents?
Defending is much easier for the most part, the ability to halt a siege by owning BO's is pretty big, not sure why the tactic isn't used more often. Seems as if defenders would rather just "farm".


Just wanted to emphasize the need for disposal of siege weapons. Either through a timer or inactivity timer, someone to reorganize / reallocate them is necessary for both defenders and attackers.