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[WP/DoK] AoE detaunt tactic

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Bobbiom
Posts: 219

[WP/DoK] AoE detaunt tactic

Post#1 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:06 pm

Let 1hand/offhand wp/dok have their aoe detaunt tactic back.

The issue: Of the three healer archtypes wp/dok suffers the most when it comes to mobility (healing while on the move), no range CC, weak survivability (as of now) and the secondary source Righteous fury gets drained to the bottom after a few casts forcing you to either use supplication or get in melee range and hit something.

There is the issue for 1hand/offhand wp/dok, you don't want to get in close in melee because you are going to get blown up ( yes, even with high armor value).
As it is now for 1hand/offhand wp/dok is that they are forced to stay in the back because without aoe detaunt it is total madness to even try staying in melee hitting someone to gain RF.

Wp/dok have really low survivability, by all means high armor value but that is not going to carry you.
It is not going to save you at all when you get in a hairy situation.

Zealot/rune priest got their 50% reduced damage ability.
Archmage/Shaman got aoe detaunt.
Warrior priest/Disciple of Khaine 1hand/offhand got no defensive abilitys against more than one target.

The other healers got their abilitys by just ranking up, wp/dok needs to use 1 tactic slot to gain the ability to aoe detaunt.
I do think that is an acceptable cost for something that is needed for the wp/dok class.


Solution:
1. Give back wp/dok 1hand/offhand their aoe detaunt tactic as it was originally. ( I personally prefer this, obviously baised.)

2. Same as above but make it last only 5s with the 15s cooldown. ( 5s doesn't look like much but it will help against bursts and I do think 10s window is a fair amount to take any target down.)

3. Same as number 1 but make it last 10s with 20s cooldown. ( lasts 10s with 10s window of oppertunity for the enemy team, seems balanced enough. )



Imo as I have played wp it is very noticable that wp/dok suffers hard from not being able to handle hairy situations and I do believe firmly that wp/dok 1hand/offhand wont be op with it.

I know that you don't want wp/dok to be a backline healer but lets face reality, untill there is a proper solution there is no reason to nerf a vital tactic for 1hand/offhand.

Thank you for your time reading this.

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#2 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:12 pm

Here we go... moving to Discussions.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#3 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:03 pm

mm to break a lace in favour of previously changes, this situation of detaunt yes, detaunt not is all about how things are gona move from now on for dok/wp, will they be relegated to backline or will they be moved to frontline again, thus interation with essence lashand detaunt depoend from this factor.

a front line dok even with detaunt can't spam essence lash because it break detaunt, so the whole point is lacklsuter anyway, detaunt cant anyway stack with guard and good opponent will KD you when you're detaunt have 1 sec duration /1 sec CD so you re done for it.

for get detaunt dok/wp sacrifice 1 tactic that can be used otherwise since detaunt dont stack with guard

solution 2 is lackluster, burst gona heppen on you usually when detaunt is finishing not when is not up, and kd Will prevent you to detaunt so you are gona spend 1 tactic for a not really efficent skill with out talk about rec problem and essence lash thing.

solution 3: if the aim is make dok/wp stay more time into frontline than this is lacklsuter too, if the aim is make them go up and down between the 2 line it may work tough CC can make prolonged the presence in front line to more than 10 sec and enemy know after detaunt end that they have 10 sec to kill you, and KD will till prevent you from detaunt which mean either guard or dead. (with otu count pre detaunt burst is a thing due essence lash brakign detaunt).

solution ! suffer same problems but at leat let you handle the detaunt 100% of the time.

imo, solution 1
Spoiler:
plus essnece lash dont breaking the dam detaunt, cant stack with guard anwyay and essence lash dont remove guard for what i know... so why it shoulf remove detaunt,.... is not like you are dps your target you are jsut rec....
Or make detaunt 5 sec CD. 10 sec duration if it need to break every dam time from essence lash
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Gerv
Banned
Posts: 811

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#4 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:27 am

Bobbiom wrote:Let 1hand/offhand wp/dok have their aoe detaunt tactic back.
The WP and DoK can heal on the move through a 100 ft, 10 second, group HoT, 15 second 150 ft HoT and grp adsorb which provide great mobile group stability. Each healing class provides different benefits so they compliment each other, Sealot/RP have strong ST, Sham/AM have strong HoTs and kite tools. The secondary resource pool can be effectivley managed on both sides utilising tactics of Fueled Fury/Fueled actions, positioning to effectively smite/essance lash and sigmar's radiance/transfer essence off tanks and turrets/deamons lying around. I don't believe the resource pool is an issue.

I disagree you require melee range, as you can through high armor and winds impervious sets and knights/chosen and futile strikes, improve your defensive stats beyond recognition. Choosing your moment to smite/essence clash involves pre-thinking and awareness to be effective.

The classes both share cc in regards to an AoE punt, which effects people upt to 30 ft away and punts them an additional 30 ft. The deciple additionally has a snare on covenant. While they are not as potent as the Runaway tactic and stagger. When used correctly and playing in a group with teammates, there is enough cc to rely on to support you, as well as guard switching and another healer to support you.

As a result of the points above, I don't believe the changes are required.
Last edited by Gerv on Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#5 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:20 am

1, I would agree entirely. The loss of the AoE detaunt neutered the WP's survivability(I've never played DoK). And I would love to have the AoE detaunt returned.

2-3, I would argue against. Specifically, because it would nerf the WP/DoK's ability to detaunt a single target. Every Healer has the ability to drop 100% uptime on a single target. This is often required to be able to cast through a single DPS/tank that makes it too the backline, or survive a Sorc rotation, WE popping, etc. I would prefer to not have an AoE detaunt rather than not have a ST detaunt with 100% uptime. But, that would be an argument for each individual depending on how they play. So they might actually be the "best" answer, I just wouldn't like it.

Perhaps, instead of lowering the uptime of the Detaunt, the tactic would shorten the range of it? AoE detaunting the enemy backline was always pretty freaking powerful, and imo, the AoE detaunt should be somewhat specifically for melee range. Since that is where the WP/DoK would "need" it in regards to RF and class abilities. Either chang the Detaunt to work similar to AM/Sham(30ft from the caster) or just lower the range from 100ft to 50ft.

Alternatively, since the issue has always been backline healers that double as tanks, perhaps nerf RF regen while the Detaunt is active? Who knows if this is even possible...

Ofc. None of us know if any of the previous WP/DoK changes will be reintroduced in any way.

Edit: Fixed.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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nailinthehead
Posts: 84

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#6 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:53 am

AoE detaunt yes but IMHO only for melee WP. For backline WP to improve survuvability would be enough to improve movement speed to normal value. Right now the real threat for WP in melee range are backline casters/rdps who melt us within seconds even when guarded. Without long range AoE detaunt we are the first ones to die in fight as we are getting focused instantly. As much as AoE detaunt is a strong ability it is not very reliable as in organised WBs backline is spreaded so detaunt can't reach all of them.

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Jinxypie
Posts: 328

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#7 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:10 am

Not fan of original perma detaunt, but Doks/Wps are lacking some O-**** button badly, especially when they need to stay melee for sustainable heals. So my vote goes to option 3.
DoK RR80+, Chosen RR80+, Choppa RR70+, SH RR75+ WP RR65+

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Panzerkasper
Posts: 572

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#8 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:23 am

I never understood the principle on this server of nerfing things to sh** instead of doing some fine tuning on the values. I'd say option 3, but with 25-30 seconds cooldown.
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Habsi
Posts: 14

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#9 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:33 am

Total agree. Especially if a melee train catch you, there is no oh **** Button.

A nerf on cooldown or Duration would be the answer to bring it back.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: wp/dok AoE detaunt tactic

Post#10 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:36 am

Gerv wrote:
Bobbiom wrote:Let 1hand/offhand wp/dok have their aoe detaunt tactic back.
The WP and DoK can heal on the move through a 100 ft, 10 second, group HoT, 15 second 150 ft HoT and grp adsorb which provide great mobile group stability. Each healing class provides different benefits so they compliment each other, Sealot/RP have strong ST, Sham/AM have strong HoTs and kite tools. The secondary resource pool can be effectivley managed on both sides utilising tactics of Fueled Fury/Fueled actions, positioning to effectively smite/essance lash and sigmar's radiance/transfer essence off tanks and turrets/deamons lying around. I don't believe the resource pool is an issue.

I disagree you require melee range, as you can through high armor and winds impervious sets and knights/chosen and futile strikes, improve your defensive stats beyond recognition. Choosing your moment to smite/essence clash involves pre-thinking and awareness to be effective.

The classes both share cc in regards to an AoE punt, which effects people upt to 30 ft away and punts them an additional 30 ft. The deciple additionally has a snare on covenant. While they are not as potent as the Runaway tactic and stagger. When used correctly and playing in a group with teammates, there is enough cc to rely on to support you, as well as guard switching and another healer to support you.

As a result of the points above, I don't believe the changes are required.

1. mm not really agree all those heals are either hot or 60 sec cd absorb, classes can have differents things but in a game more than in a meta where you dont wanna be near the figth as healer (CC, interrupt, focus) is really hard justify the presence of a dok/wp in frontline when it do not have the tools to be in the frontline. IS even harder justify is presence in backline as it cannot heal on the move as burstly as other healers ( and not also burst but also spam that burst ever x reliable ammount of time; as said abrosb is 60 sec CD). All other healers are mobile caster which mean thay can kite and direct heals not stopping even for 1 sec if enemy is chasing you; all those skill you are proposing as balanced of the role of dok are not stacked togheter reliable enough to keep a target alive and not spmable enough regarding other healers tools. Once you have a zealot/runy do his hot/buff armor+heal job you are left with the only 1 ppl of the party which cannot kite reliably. Yes you are harder to kill than am/SH, still zeal/runy are as hard to kill as you and require no guard since they can st the first ppl coming at them pssible the one kd em or the melee exatly near him, then aoe detaun everything basically be under a costantly 50% dmg reduction and more mobile. Since the meta is all about avoid even being hit in first place this is total lackluster for dok/wp.
They basivally take 50% more than other healer and need to stay more neared than other to front line.
DOk as always have worst match up tan wp with rkd, silence pounce, cd increase hence why covenant ahve a snare proc ( and is still a proc so now way to decide when it will be active and anywya melee can simple anti snare/root and this just get a baddeer version of dmg buff (with no ICD) of wp........
With out talk about your chance to substan and heals with otu aoe detaunt in aoe settings, dok/wp basically lost the way to reliably be stationery ignore dmg and stationary spam aoe/group heals if focussed with otu a guard.

2. choosing when essence lash/smite require MORE than pre thinking as the hit cn actually be parry so you need to risk more thans imple be in 65 feet range of the first target:

-first the 65 are not for stay at range they are there to allow you to hit scattered enemys which stay away from first line when you need to use this

-this lead inevitabily to risk more for possibly zero rewards as healing dok/wp will be parry often..... Basically you need to move on the enemy flank basically go into "their" medium line for a 100% chance to rec on 9 target with no way to detaunt.

All this stats increase is nowhere to be true, yes my dok can have overcapped resistence and so, so doeas all other healers in game....... 40% dmg less is lol, a bw fireball if not guarded will still crit you 1k (as exemple) also the armor value will be removed for a good 40% staple by anny rr40 melee this is still huge, you are not a tank not even comparable since you lack the avoidance tools which tanks have as core. Same things for crit any healers can have crit % level of all other healers is not likedok/wp have easier way to reduces crit than others.
So all this stats stack is not an issue when the main font of durabilty is avoidance ( look offensive SM + wall of darting steel).
Also in regard armor dok/wp do tno have more armor than other healers since armor penetration is a % the reduction is always proportional so give 2 value x and y the hgier will be always reduced more with the same % reduction applied to both.
so if my dok have a 80% reduction from armor it get 48% if a shammy have 60% it get 36%. This is just a 12% in difference in pshisical dmg and is nowwhere near all those extremly high stat increase you are talking about.

3.the aoe punt is **** for a self defense purpose as it suffer from the same problem of essence lash is a melee requrie to hit tool which is done by a class which do not stack str so it gona be parry most of time so use it in pressure is really really hard worst of it is not even 360 degre as sh/am this mean that it can be screw most of times by a lot of factory especially ror server ( since here on ror i canntot jump turn camera punt while mid air and re turn camera before lank as it keep follow the original direction with some delay so is even worst than in live).
Any BO/SM punt is 100% more rellibale have a lesser CD (10 sec vs 60 ) and is 360% degree vs cone fo dok/wp. Any comment about dok/wp punt in heal spec feel like bias linked to the years of hate for these classes. You SUPPOSE NOT TO EVEN BE IN PUNT RANGE as classes are specable currently. NO self cleanse from group cd increase, possible be rkd, r-silence, no way to detaunt enemy, no way to keep movement up 100% of the time since you cant cast on the mvoe direct heals as other 2 healers archtype + need to be babysit by a tank since no aoe detaunt as other healers ( in case of zeal/run 2x detaunt and dmg reduction + anti set back)

Backline healres suppose to be babysit by tanks not viceversa. DOK/WP under focus with no guard = dok/wp dead and this is sufficent enough for any reverse of the detaunt change.
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