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[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#261 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:30 pm

Daknallbomb wrote:
Noergl wrote:
Daknallbomb wrote: Hmmm so fact is some ppl feels there is an issue with keg. So PLZ be open for IT and stop Block everything.
And a fact is too there are others who believe the contrary. Sorry, that`s beside the point. You can`t expect just because some people feel there is an issue the ones that believe otherwise should be "open" and don`t "block" everything. Grunbag and others tried also to give arguments for convincing the oposition and a lot of it was "blocked" or disregarded. Why is someone who is trying to establish there is nothing wrong the one who is to blame?

And as Lesti has said, we would help for a test scenario, but personally i`m not convinced such a test would either be representative nor that it would be fair or unbiased.

no thats not beside the point if there are ppl there is an issue and there are ppl who say no ther isnt we have to test it
Do the people who claim to have an issue actually have an issue with the ability or are they simply after nerfs to a career they do not like?

Every sound argument provided has been ignored. When asked for proof or confirmation of an issue, those requests were ignored. Then one of the possibly most biased testing methods which strongly favors the issue holders is suggested.

This whole thing is nothing but a witch hunt. A witch hunt that has been happening for months on end in these forums.

Again I will ask.

Do you see any premades stacking kegs? No.
Do you see any organized warbands stacking kegs or even engineers for that matter as side from the bitterstone role-play warband? No.
Do you see a dozen, or even a warband of engi's stacking keg on top of each other in keep defenses? No.

The only evidence you have is big fluff healing numbers from scenarios, which anyone can do. I can break 100k on my IB with grumble and mutter, I've done 100k on my slayer with pots, the self hot tactic, and the channel heal.

They are of course completely worthless because dps in this game is about spike not fluff, which is the same for heals, and having 6-7 engi's is more of a handicap than a benefit, and then you need all of them to spec into keg which many don't because if you go rifle and want the crit tactic you gotta cut your mastery points a bit thin, and if you have a group healer, you never use keg. Most serious engi's, who run with support don't even spec it anymore.

The arguments of willpower stacking are hilarious beyond belief. I can stack str on a brightwizard for uber staff autoattack damage. Does BW staff autoattack damage need to be nerfed because I waste tali's and renown on a useless gimmick spec?

There are so many things wrong with this thread, it simply boggles the mind. It is a witch hunt pure and simple.

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Daknallbomb
Game Artist
Posts: 1781

Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#262 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:38 pm

Karast wrote:
Daknallbomb wrote:
Noergl wrote: And a fact is too there are others who believe the contrary. Sorry, that`s beside the point. You can`t expect just because some people feel there is an issue the ones that believe otherwise should be "open" and don`t "block" everything. Grunbag and others tried also to give arguments for convincing the oposition and a lot of it was "blocked" or disregarded. Why is someone who is trying to establish there is nothing wrong the one who is to blame?

And as Lesti has said, we would help for a test scenario, but personally i`m not convinced such a test would either be representative nor that it would be fair or unbiased.

no thats not beside the point if there are ppl there is an issue and there are ppl who say no ther isnt we have to test it
Do the people who claim to have an issue actually have an issue with the ability or are they simply after nerfs to a career they do not like?

Every sound argument provided has been ignored. When asked for proof or confirmation of an issue, those requests were ignored. Then one of the possibly most biased testing methods which strongly favors the issue holders is suggested.

This whole thing is nothing but a witch hunt. A witch hunt that has been happening for months on end in these forums.

Again I will ask.

Do you see any premades stacking kegs? No.
Do you see any organized warbands stacking kegs or even engineers for that matter as side from the bitterstone role-play warband? No.
Do you see a dozen, or even a warband of engi's stacking keg on top of each other in keep defenses? No.

The only evidence you have is big fluff healing numbers from scenarios, which anyone can do. I can break 100k on my IB with grumble and mutter, I've done 100k on my slayer with pots, the self hot tactic, and the channel heal.

They are of course completely worthless because dps in this game is about spike not fluff, which is the same for heals, and having 6-7 engi's is more of a handicap than a benefit, and then you need all of them to spec into keg which many don't because if you go rifle and want the crit tactic you gotta cut your mastery points a bit thin, and if you have a group healer, you never use keg. Most serious engi's, who run with support don't even spec it anymore.

The arguments of willpower stacking are hilarious beyond belief. I can stack str on a brightwizard for uber staff autoattack damage. Does BW staff autoattack damage need to be nerfed because I waste tali's and renown on a useless gimmick spec?

There are so many things wrong with this thread, it simply boggles the mind. It is a witch hunt pure and simple.
First of All i was one of the ppl that cry for an engi buff.. And i love that engi has his role now. But i will ask u again If noone stack IT massiv where is the problem to Just let IT stack 6 Times? The Argument noone does it is no Argument. And If noone stack IT cause its not good where is the nerf When u let IT stack 6 time? Just one good answer to that and iam out. Let IT heal outside of Party let IT untrageble let IT like IT is Just change that not more than 6 kegs in one area can stack. Every Single Thing what u say is Just that i wanna nerf engi... U are Hard wrong
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

User avatar
Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#263 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:02 am

Limiting keg to stacking only 6 times is an arbitrary and unneeded change.

Why 6? Why not 12? Why not 24?

The vast majority of AoE abilities in this game stack, with few exceptions, why do you think BW / Sorc bombing is an issue?. If I have 24 engineers all using blunderbuss in the same place, should blunderbuss be limited to only 6 taking effect. If I have 12 lightning rods down, should only 2 hit.

Putting caps and limits on abilities is what broke a lot of the balance in the first place in this game. Napalm, and mist are largely useless because they do not stack in a warband setting, while other abilities do. More abilities should be like keg, like the runepriest / zealot runes. It is also telling that you have yet to bring up the WP version yet.

There is no good reason to nerf or limit keg. The concerns you raise about the use of kegs in an organized keep defense are complete fantasy because they simply do not work as you envision them. If they did, they would be widely used, but they do not. I can have 6 kegs on me, and I will still die to sorc burst, and still die to a lone marauder. Keg just cannot compare to actual healing. It cannot move with you, nor cleanse you, nor put up absorb shields. It is slow, and has a low range.

The number of kegs needed just to comfortably counter a single competent sorc is already beyond a functional level. You need at least 8-10 to get into the 2-3k over 3s range to barely outpace a lone sorcs dps, and you can still be spiked in that window even if the keg ticks are staggered and coming in every 1-2s. 8-10 engineers just to maybe survive 1 rotation from Kenssin without needing to pop M1, potion, and hide behind a tree.

That is 8-10 engineers with keg to do the same rough amount of healing a healer can do in about 1-2 group heals.

A warband with 8-10 engi's is not a functional warband. It does not maintain a 2 2 2 balanced group setup, and you lose a massive amount of dps by not having BW's, and SL's. Those kegs also become near meaningless because you have group healing coverage already.

It doesn't work they way you think it does.

And saying "what's the problem with nerfing an ability that nots good?" is just awful. You don't nerf an ability for being bad. If the ability is fine where it is or even weak then you don't nerf it.

Keg is fine, it is well balanced with Aegis. They both have their own situational usefulness. Keg is better for smaller scale roaming and pugging it in warbands, where Aegis is a great anti spike tool. It's great for rifting, premades, and for solo roaming.

This is just yet another thread in a long line of recent threads, just like the auto-attack, and cannon smash threads, it is a witch hunt that ignores the reality of the situation, and any or all information or arguments provided.

Daknallbomb
Game Artist
Posts: 1781

Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#264 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:38 am

Spoiler:
Long Text no Argument... And where Did i wrote nerf a Bad skill is okay? IT where youre words. You say nobody stack kegs that massiv. Youre words. Do u See premates stacking kegs.. Do u See warbands stacking kegs? No! Youre words so now PLZ tell me where is the nerf If they dont stack infinity? There is no nerf If noone Do it! The only opinion to hold that kegs stack infinity is to use IT to stack tham massiv. U write wall of Text and again no Argument Wy keg should be stackable infinity Times. And Wy? Well get the answer from youreself and be fair and say IT. 6 was Just an example cause of one Group are 6 ppl . U are on Hard defensiv Mode without any Argument. If no premates or wb using massiv Stacks of keg gimme The reason where The problem is to fix infinity stack Potential? . Its nit a nerf its Just Make IT balanced. Cause there is a chance a possibility to creates areas where ppl heal 5000k life per second or more or less its Just a Number. Thats stupid that These possibility exist. But i can write what ever u want u Just See again aaaaah He want nerf engi blah blah... Now u bring arguments from dps skill from dps classes in a discussion about heal from a dps class... Its off topic But u rly think that stacking Mist to infinity was balanced? Lol Y Sure large keep Fight with more than 100 ppl each side u could Make an Area that Ticks for about 15k dmg per tick.. Y rly balanced....
Please man add some spacing at least or we will have to remove your posts from the balance discussion as you need to be able to write stuff that can be read. -Natherul
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

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dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#265 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:49 am

Spoiler:
Are we in all honesty discussing this?

This is why balance needs needs to be thought out in a group perspective.
If you're bringing one keg engineer to a group you're already gimping yourself in a certain way.. especially one that is specced to have his keg being effective, now if you bring more then one (issue at hand, which is stacking their effects) you're as good as dead for any decent group. So why are we even discussing this again for real? I'm honestly laughing of the fact this even passed to discussion phase and there are 27 pages :lol:

Soon we'll have discussions about dot stacking being an issue, using a theoretical scenario where you've 24 dps AMs spamming dots in one target...

Tl;dr nerf Magus buff Mara.
User has been suspended from the balance discussion for this post, there was ample warning. -Natherul
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
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Daknallbomb
Game Artist
Posts: 1781

Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#266 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:01 am

Cant be an issue Press cleanse to solve aww my Post above is to Bad english... Hell that sucks iam sorry about IT *edit i try find someone to translate now makes no sense if nobody understand what i wrote
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Pending Final Review] [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#267 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:13 pm

2 weeks have passed. Locking.

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