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[Sham] Gork's Barbs

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#21 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:56 pm

Sorry but I'm going to have to slightly hijack this thread- I doubt Azareal and the Balance Mods want two threads about the same ability….unless they don’t mind- in which case I can submit a separate one.


Issue: While I agree with you that Gork's Barbs is an (almost) useless ability- especially for an ability so high up the mastery- I don't think it should be left as is or just have it’s cool down reduced.
Originally this ability was used to debuff melee dps by dealing an adequate amount of damage whenever they dealt damage, which lasted 10 seconds with a 10 second cool down and 2 second cast time (reduced with Gork’s Waaagh!)

Solution 1: Reverting it back to it's original state (before the career was gutted) makes sense (as torque would say) thematically as wrapping an enemy with Barbs would deal damage to afflicted individual instead of an individual applying a range heal 100ft away.

Solution 2: Another possible solution would be to replace the healing debuff/damage with damage that is inflicted to the target whenever they move- same reason as above- but that might end up conflicting with "Gork Sez Stop," which also needs a minor buff and potential nerf as it is supposed to act as a root, which typically last 4 seconds instead of 2.........

Solution 3: Remove the debuff, reduce the cooldown, and replace it with a DoT that scales with Waaagh! This option again, works with the theme of the ability, and helps boost a Shaman's overall damage, which was unintentionally nerfed when "Get'N Smarter" (picture provided below) was removed from the game due to general redundancy, because of the revamp to "You're A Weaklin'" ...would be nice if Shaman would also get their self intel buff back as well as they currently have the lowest intel around, which was remedied by that ability (Get'N Smarter.)

Option 1 and 2 both add more value to having a DPS spec Shaman to your group as they can help debuff and provide some damage melee careers, instead of just providing fluff damage (Both the ability and a DPS Shaman)
Option 3 would also make a Shaman more desirable as it would allow the Shaman to play both the role of off-heals and support DPS (i.e. make use of the career's mechanic)
Option 1, 2, and 3 would all remove the healing debuff, to the satisfaction of some players, and would promote group play.
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For those that would contest the removal of the healing debuff:
The Shaman does not need a healing Debuff because a Choppa has a melee one that lasts 10 seconds with a 10 second cooldown, and the Squig Herder has a spammable ranged one.
*This isn’t a solo game
**I have an r40 rr40 Shaman (Gursnik)
Last edited by catholicism198 on Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#22 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:28 pm

A note on Get'n Smarter: the ability exists in the client and can be made to work very easily, but it is in the Path of da Green, not the Path of Gork.

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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#23 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:42 pm

Azarael wrote:A note on Get'n Smarter: the ability exists in the client and can be made to work very easily, but it is in the Path of da Green, not the Path of Gork.
:D
I know. I was not sure if you'd be open to bringing that ability back- or that it was even an option- and just removing the debuff- the debuff was probably the main reason why it was in "Path of Da Green"
I guess I can make that Option 4 or make a new proposal for that ability, still have to make one more for "'Ere we go..."
Option 4: Bring back Get'n Smarter and allow it to benefit from "Path of Da Green" mastery points.
*Seems out of place for this discussion

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Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#24 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:59 pm

For a secondary effect how about some medium damage and make the target 5% more likely to be crit? Sort of like a reverse radiant gaze that would fit the des theme of offensive debuffing nicely. This would help the sham actually kill his target instead of doing some throw away damage to a group healer that won't care.

As a general but related balance issue a heal debuff that cannot be chained is awful. That goes for all the heal debuffs not just the shamans.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#25 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:24 pm

zumos2 wrote:
Spoiler:
Luth wrote:I'm against a lower cooldown and instead the secondary effect should be buffed, if necessary.
The most powerful/deadly debuff in competitive PvP should not exist on the healer archetype on such a low cooldown with a 100 feet range.
As all dedicated damage dealers have to spec 9 points as well for their 50% incoming healdebuffs (without any side effect) and the melee classes have a 5 feet range, a 10 second CD/100 feet range incoming HD is between the melee DD and the SH/SW healdebuffs in terms of usefulness to kill any healed target - on a healer class.
First of all, healers in Warhammer have the option to go for a dps spec. On some healers the dps spec is stronger and more viable than on others at this moment. Archmage in terms of damage and viability would be the strongest dps of order healers and still is not played at all in premades anywhere. Dps DoK I guess is the most viable dps of the healers, partly because of its strong heal debuff. When a healer can spec for a damage spec which can replace a dps, then why should they not have access to a heal debuff? Taking into consideration that a heal debuff is vital to have on your dps in order to kill anything really.

Where I can understand the opinon of healers not having a heal debuff is when they are fully healing specced. That would be possible by moving the heal debuff higher up in the dps tree for AM/Shaman. As the DoK and ZL/RP heal debuff require you to attack (and use a tactic slot) that shouldn't be of any problem. WP heal debuff is obviously a joke atm, but as it would require you to get into melee range I would argue even if buffed it can stay in its current position.
I'm aware that healers can spec for DPS in WAR.
That doesn't stop them from healing others with a reduced amount (though unaffected by heal debuffs in case of lifetap heals) and so contributing to the overall stability of the group, not only with healing but also with different support (e.g. cleansing, rezzing etc.).
As well as a "DPS tank" can still use challenge, taunt, hold the line and occasionally guard if he wishes so. Same for specific morales.
zumos2 wrote: Dps DoK I guess is the most viable dps of the healers, partly because of its strong heal debuff. When a healer can spec for a damage spec which can replace a dps, then why should they not have access to a heal debuff? Taking into consideration that a heal debuff is vital to have on your dps in order to kill anything really.
As i understand it (please correct me if i'm wrong), your argument is that an archetype should be able to replace a different archetype by simply specing a different mastery path.
What hinders a healer in his (pure-) DPS role from healing others? Or from the other side: Can a DD spec for healing friendly targets?
Should a healer get an increased damage output when specing for DPS? Of course. Should a healer get the same tools as a dedicated DD (who has no other role/place in the group, other than to be dangerous to the enemy)? Of course not.
In the case of non-melee healer balancing, it should be also considered that they can apply their debuffs/lifetap healing easily over a 100 feet range, as i already mentioned in my other post.

Just to clarify my opinion (i don't want to derail this topic): If it was up to me, no healer would get any form of incoming healdebuff (outgoing is a different storry) and they would be DD exclusive (as part of the archetype concept).

Daknallbomb
Game Artist
Posts: 1781

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#26 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:40 am

Very interesting. Never heard about getn smarter. Hmm i can say yes to shammy need no heal debuff. And pushing shammy dmg with solution 1 or 4 Make dps shammy more viable. But it looks like The thread here confuse me now.
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#27 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:08 pm

Daknallbomb wrote:Very interesting. Never heard about getn smarter. Hmm i can say yes to shammy need no heal debuff. And pushing shammy dmg with solution 1 or 4 Make dps shammy more viable. But it looks like The thread here confuse me now.
Yeah, sorry. I've just been really busy and did not have the chance to start my own earlier- so I just decided to build on yours. Gork's Barbs used to have a two second cast- like many other Shaman abilities- but it was removed when they changed it to what it is now....Adding a cast time would just make this ability even less desirable.

I created one for Get'n Smarter- so if this doesn't amount to anything we might still have something else to look forward too. Fingers crossed?

Daknallbomb
Game Artist
Posts: 1781

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#28 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:19 pm

Y thats okay. I hope to See both. A useful barbs. With lower CD or some other changes. Getn smarter would be nice for dps shammy.
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Dps shammy (healdebuff)

Post#29 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:10 pm

2 weeks. Time to lock.

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Sham] Gork's Barbs

Post#30 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:05 pm

Gork's Barbs was given a 20s cooldown and had its damage changed in server patch Aug 14 2018 which renders this proposal "old," though given that it was used as an impetus for the change, it will be moved to "Implemented."

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