Terrible Embrace (range check, defensibility)

[Azarael]

This thread is for discussion of two issues affecting Terrible Embrace.

The first is that during a recent fix to range checks, I added an additional end-cast range check to all cast time spells which can be cast on the move, both to normalize these abilities with channels and instant casts, which have always used this behaviour, and to prevent running back while channelling a Terrible Embrace to extend the pull distance, as I consider pulls to be strong abilities which are in no need of any help from such a technique, especially in zerg conditions. It has been pointed out in another topic that this change may have balance implications for the Marauder and Destruction in general, as the Marauder pull forms part of the counterplay to Guard. I wish to hear opinions from players with expertise regarding the impact of this change, which limits the maximum pull distance of TE to 65 feet. For reference, this is also the absolute maximum pull distance of Fetch. Under the previous code, the maximum pull distance for TE (considering that the mid-range check takes place at 60% of the way through the ability) was 65ft plus however far outside of that range the Marauder could run back and the target could run away in 0.8 seconds.

The second is that TE is one of the few skills in the game whose defensibility check does not run off the caster's attacking stat. TE is Intelligence-based, whereas its mirror, Fetch!, is Strength-based. This makes little sense and would ordinarily be a no-brainer fix, but as it has balance implications, I'm also obliged to ask whether or not changing TE's defense check would cause any gameplay issues. I do not view extreme RNG on whether or not the pull actually works to be a valid balancing factor. However, one point that has been raised is that a Strength-based Terrible Embrace would be unaffected by a counterplay involving using Hold The Line! on the target of TE.

Bear in mind that the issue with TE going on cooldown if the target is out of LOS at the end of the pull will be fixed.

Before responding, please familiarize yourselves with the special rules of this subforum. As I have created this topic, I will recuse myself from moderating it. Thank you.

[Penril]

These are the rules. I strongly suggest you guys read them before posting. We won't tolerate anyone breaking them.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=11105

[noisestorm]

Honestly i can see it having issues with a strict 65feet limiation as there is no chance to react to any lag(jumping) people might encounter. I would say having a grace range of ~10 feet on it will not hurt as much and may just solve the whole debate around it.

If there is a change in regard of INT -> STR considered, then i can just point out that the defense method will change from disrupt to parry as well. If you compare the methods of defense to Fetch! now, you see that a parryable TE will have a LOT less counterplay then before.

Speaking of a Healers/Casters perspective now:
Pet can be killed, CC'd or outranged to let the spell fail. Also you can still defend the attack from the Pet itself as well.

TE(parryable) will need you to face the target in order to defend it. Obviously you can still outrange it as well (but it will be a bit better if there is a small grace range on it)
Others cannot interfere with the spell unless they use a taunt, which will not induce a cooldown on TE either.

My personal input on this in short:
I would highly advise to not change the Mainstat of TE, while i would agree with a minor grace on the range at the endcast-check. If anything besides that would get changed (in a Buffesque way for TE) i would also advise to let the spell go on a normal CD if it is properly interrupted by any means.


PS: See this as my personal input and prove me wrong/right or whatever and dont be afraid.

[Vigfuss]

A couple thoughts on this:
When the marauder begins to channel TE both players are within 65ft range. The cast time of the channel gives the Order team a chance to react to the pull. What they should do is either taunt or engage, typically the kotbs runs in and staggers the Destro front line. When Order doesn't use this kind of counter play the pull is really devastating. What this means for the gameplay (in general) is that the Marauder can force a fight to start and Order has to respond to it.

I think the pull was designed primarily to counter Rdps, because healers naturally have a higher chance to disrupt it. That seems like good game design to me.

Suggestion:
Have the pulled player land at the location where the Marauder first began to channel the pull. If the Order player moves farther away that's his choice, not the choice of the Marauder. You have to remember that Rpds generally don't have snares applied to them, and it's very easy for them to get out of range of the pull because Mdps normally do have snares applied to them. IIRC this is how it worked on live. I remember moving towards a player while pulling, and then turning around because they would land behind me where I started the channel. I'd suggest doing it that way, and removing the second range check. Then if the marauder moves away from the spot where they first started channeling TE he will not be in the place where the Order player lands, making it impossible to pull the a player any farther back then he should. I like this solution better because it would leave the intended game play as is.

[Gachimuchi]

I would the leave the int-based cast as is. Pros and cons for already exist for the pulls in the fact fetch requires the pet to be on target; giving Destru groups more advance warning of a pull, and more options to deal with it. Leaving TE ineffective versus healers would level the playing field, if it was changed to otherwise it would just be flat out better than Fetch because of the low chance of failure. The only other remaining 'con' is the cast can be interrupted and not go on cd. Additionally, the equivalent of interrupting a WL's pull would be killing the pet, which has substantially more impact than making the Marauder wait a bit longer to complete his pull successfully.

[Tklees]

I support an original spot of cast location with it being still Intel based.

Reason: The order counter to rdps kiting is much stronger than destros currently. This is due to the 2 rkds that allow melee to close, WL insta gap close in pounce, and Fetch!. I look at the Mara and WL mirror and see them as the mdps that can counter kiting, WL by pouncing to target and Mara by bringing target to them a bit more reliabily than allowing rdps to have no counter to kiting destro. Would cause a discrepancy IMO.

This is a personal opinion.

[navis]

Well I just provide some feedback today relating to TE. So far the range stuff seems good from order side with these thoughts
-jump bug needs to be addressed
-LoS check feels pretty good at keeps today
-should not be able to pull player down from the Keep walls
-i'm still pretty sure if a Focus Mind is cast before the final check it can cause a defense fail result, and the animation of that thing falling to the ground.

[Azarael]

I support an original spot of cast location with it being still Intel based.

Reason: The order counter to rdps kiting is much stronger than destros currently. This is due to the 2 rkds that allow melee to close, WL insta gap close in pounce, and Fetch!. I look at the Mara and WL mirror and see them as the mdps that can counter kiting, WL by pouncing to target and Mara by bringing target to them a bit more reliabily than allowing rdps to have no counter to kiting destro. Would cause a discrepancy IMO.

This is a personal opinion.

That's a good point. In the wider scheme of things, it also feels to me as if Order have more ways of dealing with this issue.

From what I've seen so far, people generally agree with keeping the Int-based check because of the following reasons:

- 360° defense
- Healers are strong against it, with the pull thus targeting primarily RDPS
- Some counterplays are linked to Disrupt
- Fetch has a similar number of counters

I'm in agreement with that as well. Unless I see a very convincing argument to the contrary, I'll leave the main stat as it is for now.

Regarding the range check, I accept the point that TE may be in use against targets who are not snared, while the Marauder himself is, and that Order in general have more means of accomplishing the general intent of dealing with kiting.

However, I would be looking at removing the end-cast range check rather than changing TE's pull location. The reasons for that are:

- This works fine if the Marauder runs in only one dimension, but if there is lateral or Z-axis movement it becomes stupid
- The LOS check of the Marauder is relied upon to ensure the pull is valid. If the Marauder can see the target at the end of the cast, it means that a pull to the Marauder or along his line will not cause the pulled target to clip through the world. This is not true of a start location-based pull.

So far, my intention would lean towards removing the end-cast range check on move-cast skills, but keeping the LOS check. I will await some more replies.

[Bretin]

after playing against terrible embrace during the last days i realized how easy it became to avoid with this end-cast range. you can just walk away. for me that's a bit too much of a nerf. as people mentioned already: if the marauder is snared - which happens quite often due to the popularity of IB's and (especially) kotbs - it became almost impossible to fetch someone.

TE has already quite a lot of counterplays with it being intelligence based, interrupts from tanks and cc in general. there is no need to add such an easy counterplay.

hence i think the end-cast range check should be removed again.

BUT(!) to make sure that it won't be abused again TE should really cancel Charge! that's how it worked on live. You were never able to charge, start cast and run like crazy to 110+ feet. that was the hilarious part imho and exactly what made TE way too strong here.

Also if this end-cast range check gets removed from TE it should get removed from other abilities such as throw axe and fetch too. dismounting people on max range became impossible since its implementation.

[Azarael]

No one actually made it clear before now that Charge! was breaking on ability cast and not ability start. This has been fixed, and due to this, I will remove the end-cast check.