[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#31 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:17 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Knight RR 80
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/armor ... ame=Xergov
SM RR 64
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/armor ... ame=Xergom
Chosen RR 73
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/armor ... me=Xergoch
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Mostly WB, bit 6-man, bit of Solo.
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)
Intentions are good, direction or way of achieving goal is bad.
Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
Maybe but not the way of it. It would be nice to see SnB/SnSh more usability in Small Scale, but also it would be nice to see more usability of 2Handed Tanks in WB, which Guard change completely negates it.
Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
Myself don't have problem going into 6man or SC as SnB/SnSh but I also see why you want to go as 2Handed Tank in that environment.
Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
Yes, because Guard is basic mechanic of this game, its basic concept of Tank DPS Healer design, and as it Tank role is to protect and Guard is basic tool to do that, it should not matter if its 2Handed or SwordAndShield, as a Tank it should be your choice.
Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?
It is because you want to provide more DPS for the group, more burst potential and more offensive tools which with proper coordination and execution allows you to win. Of course you can use SnShield Tank in 6man but you remove more potential from your group.
Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?
Maybe a bit but it has right to be, as Shield is overpeforming over 2Handed in RvR.

Let's take example as Knight/Chosen, why you take 2Handed into 6man/SC ?
- for 10s super punt (instead 20s with Shield) which allows you to provide active and crucial tool in fight
- for Wounds debuff
- for CriticalChance debuff
- for AoE Snare
- more DPS for your group and from yourself than Shield

Now why would you want to bring Shield Knight/Chosen?
- +5% Crit from dirty tricks ? Seems weak.
- AoE Snare its possible spec for Shield if you really want to

So in reality 2Handed Knight/Chosen brings more value to 6man/SC, now is 2Handed viable spec for WB/BigScale ?
Not really because it lose too much defenses which are extremely vital in RvR field, you could try run some extreme 2Handed Knight with Vigilance but then again you pay price removing yourself AoE Stagger and still no HTL for group.

Imo better option is to play/test/change some abilities requirements, some abilities should have more Shield requirements some should have 2Hander requirements, for example as super punt is 2Hander thing then maybe KD should be Shield thing.

So to summarize, i don't think that 2Handed Tanks are/were overperforming in SC/SmallScale and even if you think so then it has right to be because Shield Tank is dominating in WB/BigScale.

If you really want to make both roles performing equaly then you need to look at them and make them viable for both fields.
Shield Tank needs to have worthy tools providing for SingleTarget burst or Defense for small scale group (DirtyTricks but better?), and same goes for 2Handed Tank should be viable for WB/BigScale area (ex. WSoD from SM/BG or Vigilance possibility on Knight).
Last edited by Xergon on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:56 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#32 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:24 pm

1) 80+BO, 60+IB, 70+BG, SM on apoc :^)

2) 6-man, 6v6

3) Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard?

I don’t agree with the reasoning for the guard change or the direction taken. The perception that there are more 2H tanks in scenarios and small scale encounters is true but this is simply due to the better utility they provide (lower cooldown punts for IB/BG, THC/ED for BO/SM, etc.) as well as the slight increase in damage needed for tanks to assist and burst down targets quickly. For classes such as IB, KotBS, BO, BG, Chosen, SM – Going 2H in small scale/scenarios is most beneficial to their group so obviously players will gravitate towards what’s best for their teammates.

The direction taken with 2H tanks and guard is built upon a false premise that 2H tanks are not tanks (ridiculous to think this by the way) and are somehow over performing when in fact they are performing perfectly as they are. They sacrifice the survivability SnB provides to give their group better utility and slight damage increase. They lack the tools that DPS have (snare immune, incoming-HD, charge) so they will never be a real DPS class, nor can they ever hope to match the damage numbers a good WE/Choppa/Slayer/SW/WH should be pumping out.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters?

Currently SnB tanks underperform in scenarios/small-scale compared to 2H. The utility provided by 2H is almost always better than the utility/survivability provided by SnB. That’s not to say that SnB is useless in scenarios since they can be an excellent damage sponge for objective based scenarios.
Ways to improve SnB desirability in small-scale/scenarios is by buffing SnB and giving them more utility, not by gutting 2H tanks of an essential mechanic of theirs on the misconception that 2H are overpowered. Not only is it a stupid change, it’s a lazy one where you are depriving a tank of their key mechanic (GUARD) and making players not wanting to take a 2H with their group because they cannot perform a simple duty of providing a teammate with the standard 50% damage mitigation.
To put it simply, buff SnB utility, don’t inhibit 2H tanks of an essential class mechanic on an uneducated opinion.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard?

Yes because they must be able to perform a basic functionality of their archetype. I don’t feel that I should have to go to deeply into this in this section but essentially it boils down to all tanks should be able to perform their guard role without being discriminated against because of what weapon they roll with.
50% guard is essential no matter what circumstance. Anything less and whoever you are guarding is going to get burned straight through guard as soon as the enemy team reaches M1 for DS/Talon.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters?

Yes they are more attractive because of the points listed in my first response. The utility provided by 2H is more beneficial to your group in scenarios and small scale.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are over performing?

No they are not over performing. The lower cooldown punts for 2H tanks such as IB/BG was a good step in defining the difference in utility between SnB and 2H and what they bring to a group. They don’t over perform in any regard.
Last edited by DokB on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#33 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:27 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?

I've played BO on live since the first beta. I started with RoR not long time ago and also play my BO only (RR71).

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

So I can only speak from a BO perspective.
On live I did everything: instances, competive 6vs6, scenarios and bigscale Warband, main tank on cityraids and so on. Now (with much less time) I spend my time in pug scenarios and sometimes orvr.

3) What are your thoughts?

I always loved the SnB playstyle. On live I was infamous as unkillable BO. In RoR I started as an offensive SnB too - up to RR60 - but I had to recognice that 2h is much better in scenarios than SnB without THC ... so I switched.

The new changes to Guard dosn't fit. It makes SnB not more attractive and it kills all the viable defensive 2h specs some other tanks had.

Fix Guard (pre patch) and remove the 2h requirements on THC ... I'll be the first BO running with SnB all the time.

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#34 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:43 pm

I play chosen occasionally in guild warband and rarely in sc, i also have a kotbs that gets little playtime due to the server balance at this point in time.

2h tanks are not and should not be welcome in warbands outside of one of snowflake builds, so i'm not even sure why there is any issue with 2h dominating 6man and sc.

Literally the only reason to go 2h as chosen is cooldown on punt tactic, damage is meh, deamonclaw is meh, rending blade is meh. Remove the restriction on punt and 2h chosen goes away.

In short:

No i don't agree, making guard worse doesn't punish the guarder it punishes the guardee.

Snb in small man, sure, but haven't we bern told many times that not all classes/builds are good for all types of content and it's fine?

Yes 2h tank should have full guard, it's a core and neccessary mechanic to even consider mitigating assist burst damage. The tank should fulfill its core role, if you feel 2h tanks are too tanky remove defensive stats from them not the dps they guard, if you must put guard back to 50% but increase the damage the 2h tank takes to 60% or some such, not that it really needs it.

Some tanks are viable or even better as 2h, but the defining part of small man is on demand cc (punt!) and guard. If you really want more snb buff their cc ability don't nerf 2h which is in no way at all overperforming.

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#35 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:46 am

1. Do you have a tank?

Yes I do, RR74 SM, and a lowbie IB ,

2. What perspective are you speaking from (6man, solo, or WB)?

6 man (SC), sometimes WB

3. Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard

Not at all. Guard is simply a core skill that a tank archetype should have. So it doesn't matter if the tank is 2h or SnB. There is a reason why Mythic created the tank that way, every single tank if you pay attention in Warhammer, they usually have a tree for 2h and the other for SnB. 2h tree is not to replace pure dps class, it's usually used as a dps assist in giving more pressure to the opponents. Also there seems to be a misunderstanding that 2h tank is always dps. You can spec very defensively with bubbles and other defensives buff and still go with 2h. Having 2h or SnB will give more variety in gameplay ( not boring). 2h and Snb do have their places in this game. The recent Guard change is really not necessary, what you might need to do is, improving SnB tanks mastery skillset because as other have said , over the years SnB have received quite substantial nerf after nerf. Guard skill is mitigating tool, yes 2h tank might soaks more damage because they won't have one defensive check ( which is Block) that SnB has, which already give SnB an edge over 2h, but that does not mean , guard should be dumb down like what you guys did. For crazy FO dps tank of course it's useless because that 2h tank will die fast, but for a heavily defensive 2h tank, they still can survive that long enough. Guard damage afaik, can be block or parry. The main purpose of Guard is meatshield, or to mitigate damage pressure to your guardee, and only a tank archetype ( regardless if they are 2h or SnB), can perform that role better.

4. Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small scale encounters, if so, how could we improve this?

Give them more tools for SnB build, it will make the gameplay as SnB in small scale less boring, and not just spamming HtL which really doesn's require a high threshold skill. You probably need to go back and review and re-consider, some of the nerfs that have been applied over the years to SnB tanks. I know to do these will take time, but the easiest first step to do is just revert back the guard change to what it was.

5. Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% guard
Absolutely, it's a core skill of a tank archetype that separate them from dps and healer archetype. You need to be aware that the goal of guard is to mitigate half the damage that the guardee received, because half of that damage goes to you instead, so the tank act as a buffer/meatshield. The recent guard change will make the guardee to take way more damage and this will make 2h less desirable in group. As I mentioned before you should keep the guard at 50% like before,it still gives SnB tank an edge over 2h because they have one extra defense check which is block. Making guard to be 25% is just not the right approach and I am sorry to say this. You shouldn't mess around with core tank skills ( i.e: guard, taunt, challenge)

6. Do you believe that a two handed is more attractive for Scenarios and Small- Scale encounter? if So why?

For me personally, they are simply because of tools/utilities and playstyle, but to some also the appearance and looks.

7. Do you think two handed tanks are overperforming? if so, how?
Not at all, 2h and SnB have their places in this game. Of course by going 2h you will gain some but also lose some, same thing with SnB. That's just part of the balance.
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#36 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:42 am

Played them all. Knight and BG max level here Chosen and SM max level live.

Scenarios and WB rvr.

I understand the rationale for the change. If you are going to gain something you should have to give something up. For me the tradeoff should be survivability for dps and maybe utility for utility.

The former I dont think there is a problem with. The latter keeps me from totally siding with the 50% for all crowd, though I think I am mostly in that camp.

The problem is that you dont really need the extra survivability in smaller scale fights. So people opt to go for some extra damage and increased utility. I never saw that as an issue, but the argument could be made that if you get increased utility from 2h based abilities that you should lose some of the utility from guard.

Personally I would have kept it as is, the game was working at a decent level in smaller scale combat without any problems. I dont think there was any reason to make a change for what seems like an ideological change rather than a balance change.

Tanks were always needed in smaller scale combat, just because every spec isnt equal doesnt seem to be a reason for change anywhere else. DPS RP/Zealot arent thought to be more effective than healing RP/Zealots in small scale. But there is no great hurry to nerf healing RP/Zealot to make them more effective.

So in terms of should and shouldn'ts, I think you can make an argument in defence of the change. However I think in realistic application it's a change that should have never been made. It seems out of character with the historical reasoning for making changes.

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#37 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:52 am

1. I play BO 2h atm RR59

2. I try to partake in all PvP content as well as PvE. In Forts/keeps i will still use SnB but when fight gets mobile i go 2h.

3. I'm on fance with this change as it's a nerf to 2h without any utility for it. I haven't found any tanks OP. They can be hard to kill but this is their role. On 1v1 2h tanks still lose to DPS focused classes as they don't have all the tools that pure dps classes have. 2h tanks already lose access to many of their abilities, why kill their utility even further?

First. This is Warhammer game and as many other Warhammer fan i do care about lore. As such, 2H tanks are lore accurate and friendly. BO and CHO are known for using both variants (2h might be even more famous), and SM and BG are almost exclusively know for their signature 2h swords and 2h polearm respectively.

Second. Even if tank class go 2h, they are still in their core tanks. They will never be in group as DPS. Some DPS gear might help in farm but you will find most of tanks still wanting to tank regardless if they use SnB or 2h. In my opinion, main difference should be to make these roll more distinctive as SnB being more of a defensive utility, reflecting dmg, better group buffs, while 2h should have more offensive focus as better debuffs/CC etc. SnB help group survive while 2h help group by taking ability to survive from enemy.

Only thing current guard change does it punish people for picking 2h without offering anything in return. This just make people not want to play their class. When you hear arguments that you shouldn't play your tank with 2h, you won't go SnB. You will start a DPS character with 2h because it's more fun and we play games to have fun. This change is extra punishing for 2h BO as they don't have that much utility in 2h to begin with. You only get some more dmg and one defensive CD compared to better punts and scenario utility for other 2h tanks.

So all you ended up doing is not encouraging people to roll SnB but discourage people from playing tanks. I for one, don't like to forced to roll different spec because my current one was nerfed. I will still play 2h BO and against all odds try to make it work and i won't be alone. But some more competitive people will be bitching on whole community because people will still play their spec. Because this is one of very few games that let you play in Warhammer universe as Greenskin. And i will play my Greenskin in a most choppy way i can.

If you want more SnB tanks, try playing one.

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#38 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:16 am

1) Yes, SM 81+
2) All of 6-man, Solo or WB
3) Bad idea use restriction system for stimulate numbers of shield tanks. Need stimulate system: give more benefits for shield tanks, for example: remove 2h restriction for dps tactics and abilities, make some ability shield tanks is more efficiency, convert defensive stats for shiels tanks in offensive etc...
For my own example, i play shield SM for undefendable after block single punt...
Other things: current default playstyle for RVR shield tanks is very stupid and sad. Small rotation of usable skills, spam HTL for example = best way for good sleep during play...

P.S.: Sorry for bad english...
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#39 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:30 am

1) Do you have a Tank?

2) What perspective are you speaking from?
6 man, warband

3) Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard?
There is no need for the change.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters?
SnB tanks dependant on spec and group comp/goal, DO have a role in small scale encounter's. So btw the balance decisions that RoR has taken with the tank archtypes have tilted the table to a more 2hnder small scale tank community by putting restrictions on abilities to specific weapon types AND nerfing of tactic's that benefit from blocking... like the morale building tactics.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters?
So this depends on the engagment size and if your facing organized or not. If your facing organized it could influence if you take a shield or not depending on the opposition's group composition. If engagment size is 18 man sized SC's with a TON of ranged as the opposition Ya might want to throw on a shield. At smaller scale, 12 vs 12, it is dependant on your own group design/goal AND what the opposition brought.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming?
Not really

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
2hnder tanks being able to guard at 50% is fine. Why does RoR think this was a change for the good of RoR? So far I have only seen weak arguments on keeping 2hnder's at 25% guard.
Last edited by footpatrol2 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#40 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:33 am

1 IB (65)/SM(50)/BG(55)
2 SoloSC/WB
3 Personally, I never part with a shield but I do not like any ultimatum changes that bring a narrowing of variation for any class. If the task was to get people to play with the shield, then it is better to achieve this by improving tank specs and not killing two-handed.

1 Unite Reflex + Defender in Renown Adv.
2 A high block may, with a certain small percentage, ignore some types of control (pull, push).
3 To make a change to the tank tree mastery, not only with an eye on 6x6 but also on the large RVR. For example, the SM - Raking Talon / IB - Oath Vengeance, good tactics for a small scale but in RVR effect from them on the front line is scanty. Make them core and replace with something that can serve well for the difficult task of tanking.

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