[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

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xanderous
Posts: 413

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#11 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:08 pm

1) All tanks except BG

2) warbands/6mans

3) Bad idea, my thoughts instead would be to give s&b more options rather than two handers less. If there is an issue with not enough people using shields in the rvr or scenarios this can be resolved with having a look at armour sets and weapons that utilize tanks to be more attractive. Also when it comes to the current meta, most dps can reach tank status through futile strikes, initiative talismans and certain gear sets, tanks cannot reach dps statue through similar methods. This is a problem because it makes said tank classes less desirable vs them and as a result, people don't play them. Will we start to see similar changes beyond this, Will we start seeing dps/healers having their damage output/mitigation reduced if adopt a build that strays from their core mechanic?
Last edited by xanderous on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Skitup
Posts: 49

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#12 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:09 pm

1) rr70+ Black orc
2) 6man- smallman
3) ridiculous change without any afterthought of the effects. Especially when all the good snb builds (black orc) have been gutted and now have nothing in return. Not everyone wants to be a full deftard tank and hit like a noodle. I love playing snb. But people like to have some damage to compensate. Tree hit combo was that damage for snb black orc. I've been saying it for a long time since it was changed. Revert that change and me and plenty of other tanks will run shields. I cant speak for the other classes like chosen or bg. That's my take on it.


Edit: if you bring back thc for snb make it so you cant have down ya go with it. Idk how you can do that. I'd think that's a good way of settling the issue. And make you wot great weapon only. And switch tree hit back to 13pts and you wot at 9. Or do something else. Like if you have thc as one hander your block chance is reduced by some amount. Idk. Do something
Last edited by Skitup on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mepharees
Posts: 25

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#13 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:09 pm

1) No
2) 6v6
3) Imho the change was a drastic one. Perhaps 35% would be a better starting point.

Suggestion 1) (The following suggestion assumes a 50% Guard for any tank.)
Give Guard a 6s cd. All tank shield items will then have a green effect reading:
+ Protector - Removes the cooldown from Guard.
This also opens up a new meta-game/mind-game where you can bait the enemy Guard on a target with fake focusing, and then hard swap to a different unguarded target once they use up the cd.
Also increases the skill ceiling.

Suggestion 2)
Make Guard scale with a (combination of) defensive stat like parry up to a cap of 50% guard.
This way, tanks would have to sacrifice more of their damage if they want to reach or get close to "50%". SnB tanks would reach this way easier if it is a combination of stat scaling.

Hope this helps,
Halta.

rTrSleepy
Posts: 18

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#14 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:32 pm

1. Do you play the class in question?
Yes, check sig
2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?
Yes, check sig
3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?
Chief cc/aura tank for competitive/casual 6man grps. Extensive experience at playing 2h as a tanky tank
4. Your feedback
I will only speak on this matter from the perspective of a Cho/Kobs and how it effects them, which is probably the least.
From what I've gathered; the reason to nerf guard on 2h was because of the lack of SnB in 6mn/small scale pvp.
So let's address that. First of all there is no incentive to use a shield other than more survivability, but you can be plenty survivable in 2h if you play correctly. In fact you disincentivized us by nerfing hastened dismissal/banish darkness tactics some time ago. You effectively told us if you want to play competitive you had to be 2h on main tank to have potent cc. Specifically for a Chosen it's still the only reason to go 2h, as the Chosens 2h tree is a mess and not worth taking anything there that benefits the grp; exception being the auras.
Now in order to nudge us back you have disincentivized the 2h spec. Why do this? Why keep dumbing everything down?
Was 2h really Overperforming? Your only defense against the endless RDPS assaults is high crit reduction. It was learn and adapt and we did.
With this Guard change though, it is my belief you have gutted a sacred cow. Dps cannot survive through pressure with only 25% guard. You have broken melee trains to their core. 2h Tanks provide utility and assist added damage. If they were so strong you would see entire grps of 2h SM's dominating all crossguading each other. The reason for running 2h was to first be the tank, that had core archetype abilities: challenge, GUARD, ChCh, Demo; and secondly provide as much damage as possible while still being able to fill your role as a TANK.
As it stands now, 2h tanks cannot fill their core role in the grp and are not needed; or are played with great detriment to the grp and little incentive to do so.
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Saftdryck
Posts: 208

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#15 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:48 pm

Do you have a tank?

Yes, defensive 2h Knight and offensive 2H BO.

What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

Solo, 6-man and 12-man.

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard?

Absolutely not. Tank is archclass regardless is it off-spec or defensive, be it 2h or SnB. His role is sponge incoming damage and CC. Breaking core mechanic and role of a certain spec (2h in this case), fills no purpose whatsoever. You dont fix or push something by breaking something else, that was not even broken or overperforming to begin with.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

I do not believe this. It has everything to do with tools tank provides with SnB spec and what kind of comp he is in. Want more SnB in scenarios and smallscale encounters? Provide SnB specs with more tools for those builds that serve both large and smallscale gameplays. In my case, currently SnB specs are just too boring to play, since i rarely do largescale groups, however those rare times i did, SnB was way to go and it was enjoyable to a certain point. To a point. SPamming 80% of my time HTL is not enjoyable to me. I think it's all about playstyle and what you enjoy.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard?

Definatly. It's a core mechanic. No changes could justify more or less damage absorption from Guard.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?

I do, atleast for myself. Reasons are tools and playstyle. Especially the playstyle. In SnB i just get bored, but that's me.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?

Non whatsoever. You gain and lose something going 2H. Same with SnB regardless if you're offensive or defensive.
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marisco
Posts: 122

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#16 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:08 pm

Do you have a tank?

Yes. I have a BG that I played mostly SNB but switched to 2h to do scenarios. Currently also have a snb chosen for ORVR.

What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?

Scenarios and ORVR.

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.

No. Guard is one of the core mechanics of the tank archetype. Nerfing it just because a player chose to play in a different way is limiting the viability of different builds and the diversity of the trees.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

What we need to ask here is: Does every spec need to have a role in every situation of the game? Why aren't we discussing how to make 2h viable in WBs, but the opposite? 2h tanks are better in small scale and snb are better at orvr-sized encounters. Just as AoE spec for dps is good for orvr and single target/burst is better for 6v6. If you are trying to make every spec good for everything in the game, isn't it akin to removing the uniqueness of each mastery tree? Is that what the dev team is trying to do here?

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.

Yes. Again, it's a core mechanic of the archetype. Just because someone specs more offense doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to guard. In the rare situation of a full "dps tank", full STR talis and FO slotted, he would already melt under guard damage/focus. Specially against RDPS. The tradeoff is already there in his stat sheet as he won't have the defense stats to guard properly. That doesn't mean that a 2h tank speced defensive should be punished because of that.

Think of the core heals that all healers have. If a healer specs into a dps, the core heal doesn't scale well enough to be good. Does the core heal needs to be nerfed for dps healers? No. Because it's already nerfed by the spec itself. Guard works the same way.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?

Yes. Because 2h tanks are able to assist dps better with crowd control. Why does 2h have betters tools for that is another question that needs to be debated, yes. But changing guards value based on weapon choice have nothing to do with that.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?

Nope. I never saw anyone complaining about 2h tanks being OP. If the "melee train" comp is overperforming in small-scale, it's definetely not the 2h tank's fault.

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Smellybelly
Posts: 286

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#17 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:09 pm

1: Do you have a tank? I have Chosen, BG, BO, IB and i also played knight and SM on live (so experience from all tanks)
2 What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?: I have played within all areas, Solo,duo, 3-man, 6 man, 2 FG, warband size.

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? : No i do not, it renders 2H tanks useless for small scale and Scenarios. If its not optimal for the situation then its a no go, same rules as apply for RVR, you do NOT bring a 2H tank to RVR.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
They can function, but depending on the group then its often more useful to be able to push harder with some defensive stats to fill in for the lack of a shield. SnB on the other handcould use some utility upgrades, faster punts, shorter cooldown on challenge etc.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard?
Yes, as i said above players will always use whats most effective and without such a basic utility as dmg control, then you may as well bring another dps. All tanks should have access to the same base skills. Its not the size of your weapon that decides what you play, thats just a tool for the situation at hand.

3:Thoughts
WARNING WALL OF SMART THINGS : This is and should always have been a simple matter of mathematics. Why? Because it simply is!
You pick your role when you create your character, in this case a tank and then you choose spec and equipment to suit that role depending on the enviroment.
If you face a situation where fireballs, mortar barrage, arrows and whatnot is flying at you every second then you need to maximise defence, hence you use a shield because otherwise the mitigation you have is not enough to matter. Its that simple.
In a smaller scale encounter where the incoming damage is less, then you can rely on your healers to take care of more of the incoming dps and you can provide some more dps with a 2H because the MATH allows you to.
This provides the tank player some variation in playstyle and such is important otherwise you simply grow bored very quickly.

So there you have it, its facts and not even debatable.

You CAN use SnB in a scenario to provide more protection but if you have decent healers then you can be a weak semi dps without escape tools who shares his hp pool with his guarded target instead. It is a choice.
I have played all classes in the game here on ror or on the former live version and NEVER have i felt that 2H guard have been an issue worthy of even consideration.

If you have a balanced group then you use 2H for scenarios and small scale roaming where you need to flee and kite constantly or when you join larger scale RVR then you MUST use a shield or you are a subpar player who provides nothing to your team.
Again, these are facts.
You need to balance your defence with the oppositions attack pattern and size.

RvR = Ranged and Magical attacks wich a 2H cannot parry so he/she takes loads of damage while also trying to guard so he dies even quicker, but with a shield he/she has a chance.

In Smallscale/Sc the incoming damage is less and you can adapt your pattern.

Guard MUST stay at 50% or ONLY SnB tanks will be of use no matter what tactics or extra utitily the devs can conjure up. And if ONLY SnB tanks are of use to the community then you can kiss a large portion of your tank players goodbye because its boring to always be a deftarding flaghumper who cant hurt anyone.

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berneke91
Posts: 54

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#18 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:34 pm

1) I main a RR77 Black Orc but I also got a Chosen & BG.

2) Solo, Duo and Warband.

3) This was a terrible change and a horrible way to execute it. For future reference when you decided to change core CLASS MECHANICS please do add a comment in the patch notes outlining your thoughts & reasoning for the change and what you hope to achieve with it. This gives the community atleast some insight in as to why it was done rather than having them all go WTF!? and leave them clueless.

My thoughts on the guard change is that it appears to be EXTREMELY poorly thought out change done on a whim and based on a perceived feeling that SnB are useless (which they are FAR FROM) rather than based on any logical and well thought out argument. You guys have community members that have invested several hundred hours into playing a specific career. Some of them are even part of the RoR team. I would strongly suggest you ADVICE those people before making radical changes!

The way I've always viewed it is that generally speaking 2h and SnB are two seperate tools for two different purposes. 2h is a necessity in most smallscale fighting and SC pvp because when you do a 6v6 premade your party will need that extra mileage of DPS that a 2h tank can provide to push someone into death. Whereas when you do largescale RvR your Warband will need that extra HOLD THE LINE to survive enemy AoE. Why should a player be punished if he is tanky enough in his premade for small scale fighting?

The Change also appears to be based on the assumption that 2h tank do to much dmg. Which is false. Any tank that plays 2h will NEVER. And i mean NEVER. out perform a an equally competent DPS player. What a 2h tank does bring to a fight is CC, Utility and burst dmg. That is all they bring. Any DPS that finds themself being obliterated in a SC premade or small scale RvR by a TANK needs to reconsider his lifechoices and learn how to utilize De-taunt, positioning etc.

The only players my Blorc can do significant damage against are players I KNOW have not invested into defensive stats but rather going for offensive or healing stats. AkA not very good PvP players.

Another thing that this change appears to fail to take into consideration is that GUARD RANGE IS ONLY 30 FEET.If a tank is more than 30 feet from the guarded target he will not recieve any guard dmg because he will be out of GUARD RANGE! If I find myself unable to kill a target with my teammates because he is being guarded by an enemy tank i throw the guarded target out of range from the tank or i throw the tank out of guard range to nullify it.

If you wish to make SnB a more attractive tree to utilize I'd recommend you make the SnB mastery tree more attractive for players to use. For Black Orc it is absolute garbage. The Wounds increase you get from each mastery point spent in the tree does imo not justify investing into it. One way to change this for Black Orcs would be to increase the amount of Wounds you get out of DA Toughest warbellow and switch places with We'z Bigger from path of Da Toughest with YOU WOT!? in path of Da Brawler. Another way you could make SnB more attractive for all TANKS is remove the Greatweapon requirement when using each class Channel ability from their Offensive mastery path.

Cheers

edit: Regarding Black Orc Da Toughest you should probably also consider putting "Stop Hittin' Da Runts" tactic higher up in the tree since it is a ridicolous tactic when used with Da Biggest war bellow whereas Mor' Hardcore is extremely MEH. That change would also incentivize players to invest more into Da Toughest mastery tree.
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retekelek
Posts: 31

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#19 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:47 pm

I have a Chosen rr65, BG rr64, Kotbs rr57 and SM 46

I speak from the perspective of solo, duo, 6man, smallcale, Roaming - SC and organized warband play

I dont want to repeat this goodly written feedback, because its represents completly my opinion about the guard change.
Spoiler:
TenTonHammer wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:37 pm
2H tanks already were at a deficit compared to SnB tanks due to the latter having also block to mitigate damage

on top of losing access to HTL! and abilites and tactics linked to block requirements like morale pumps

so for slightly higher dps and utility in other area's there is already sufficient existing trade off


The recent changes to guard are unnecessary because 2H tanks were in no way over-performing regardless of what might be believed in small scale were they are liked more for their longer punts and on demand CC but these changes were made to compensate them vs SnB tanks options

SnB tanks also still have a place in oRvR as HTL is a key ability to mitigate RDPS spam additionally on destro SnB chosens are still mainstays in organized warband play in oRvR and forts for raze morale bombing due to morale pumps

The guard change should be reverted, if you want to make SnB specs more appealing then you should make SnB more fun to play and revert some of the previous changes like THC being 2H only etc
Would like to add that even just giving back same cc capacitbilty (for example punt cd, range) as the 2hander has now, could actract more snb tanks for 6mans and smallscale setups.
One snb tank could help out team when running into ranged groups/fights in rvr or sc and also can make party more resilent whit less tanky dps-es. But because for longer and quicker punts, or some buffs i choosed to play mainly 2 hander on my tanks for smallscale.
Tried out some really offensive setups or hybrids, but mainly played as 2hander full deff tank to fill my role in the party, and my damage aint felt op, compared to a snb. Of course there are some good hybrid setups when you can have nice damage, and stay tanky, but you always give up something for it from your tankyness.

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theoddone
Legacy RR80
Posts: 90

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#20 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:49 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Gator the BG.

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Has-been solo, 2-5man groups, 6-man, chp22 pq wb's.

3) What are your thoughts on the guard change?
The change itself, how it was implemented, planing in regards to how it will affect careers and abilities. Have all been horrible. It shows a poor understanding of the game, a lack of organizational structure, and weak leadership.

I have gotten the impression that the arguments so far have been about snb vs 2h tanks, but what about 2h tanks vs dps? 2h tanks bring a lot of utility to the table. However, they lack the mobility, burst, offensive stat capabilities, and detaunt options of dps. Until now that has been considered as good trade-offs, so what changed suddenly?

Balancing needs to look at the game as a whole. That is the job of the devs to consider how balance changes will affect all aspects of the game. However, with this change, there has previously been no issue with 2h tanks having guard. There has never been a debate with reasonable arguments about it. Why change something that is not broken? Why change things when there has never been a perceived need of doing so? The players are expected to provide arguments and reasoning for their suggestions. It should be the same for devs. Hypocrites.

There used to be a structure to balance changes and discussions on the forum. It has been difficult to find the reasoning behind the change. Why should the players even follow a structure here when the management clearly does not bother?

Still posting here is kind of hopeless. Devs have mentioned before that they do not give a damn about the balance forums. So it does not matter how many reasonable arguments we provide. It's their server and they decide. It is the players that maintain this dysfunctional type of behavior by playing on the server. As long as people play here, these type of changes will continue to happen again and has happened before.
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