[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

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Orodret
Posts: 22

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#51 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:01 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Not atm, but i played tanks on live, kotbs and IB, and i plan to play them here.

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
I play mostly solo this days due to lack of time. Did a lot of warband play with guild, and on live I played a lot of 6-man highly competitive grp.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)


Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
No. I agree that there are too many 2h tanks, and that snb are suboptimal in small scale atm. But, to many 2h tanks is consequence of other problem, which is massive survivability many classes can stack now with higher rr gear, talismans, pots. Having extra dps on target, which is provided by 2h tanks, is necessary if you want to kill anything with 6-man grp s other 6/men grp..


Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
They have a role, which is CC and guard. Its just that 2h do all that and bring extra dps on board.


Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
Yes. They take tank spot in a group and guard is no.1 ability you bring tanks for.


Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-
Yes. They are necessary atm for extra dps, like SM or IB, and strong debuffs like arctic swing which other classes lack.

2 proposal solutions for tanks balance

a. You decide that 2h is small scale spec and snb warband spec. In that case 2h should lose some survivability, like mandatory focused offence to do dmg, or take extra dmg from guard but doing more dmg while in guard range of their buddy, or something similar.

b. You decide both 2h and snb should have role in both small and warband scale. In this case my proposition is focusing roles of 2h tanks on single target dmg, and snb on aoe dmg (not strong like BW, bot enough to make it viable in small and big scale)

Personaly, i think option b. is better as extra dmg overall would reduce TTK and naturaly solve most problems.

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Markon
Posts: 57

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#52 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:37 pm

1) Do you have a tank?
Yes I have all 6 tanks although i mainly focus on SM Kobs IB and BO

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Mostly 6man and solo

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
No, not at all. The main job of a tank regardless of spec is always to help support and protect your team. So taking that away from 2h classes makes no sense as most of the tanks do not even come close to putting up the DPS numbers nor do they provide enough utility (without guard) to be viable.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
In the current meta, it is hard to fit them in, not going to lie about it. Although there are cases that can be made for having a snb in a team they usually do not provide enough utility to justify it. A way to improve the viability of snb tanks is to give back some of the tools they had before that have been now given exclusively to 2h tanks. Examples would be 3hitcombo, CD reduction on punts, etc..

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
Yes, as mentioned above the main role of a 2h tank is still being a tank and provide help and soak dmg. Also all tanks are different. Some of the 2h tanks are very offensive and therefore dish out a lot of dmg (SM, BO) whereas some are still defensive and bring utility such as the KOBS. A weakness 2h tanks do have in 6mans and small scale is that they are subjects to be swapped upon more so than snb tanks due to lack of block, especially the more offensive 2h tanks. So there is already a risk of being a 2h tank in my opinion.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-
Currently, yes. But this is not due to them having guard, but rather due to the lack of utility of snb. As mentioned a way to address this is to give some of the same tools or adjust numbers for snbs.

bequick
Posts: 2

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#53 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:49 pm

Spoiler:
I like the idea that 2h take increased dmg from the guard....
Please amend your post by using the format that is required in the OP:

1) Do you have a Tank?
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Once you have amended the format of your post, you may feel free to remove my edit and spoiler from your post.

Alokonus
Posts: 1

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#54 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:35 pm

1) Do you have a tank?
SM, BG, Chosen, KOBS, but have exposure to all 6

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
Mainly solo and 6 man

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.

I do not agree with the direction because it renders a sub class for tanks almost useless because they cannot perform their most important ability effectively. To essentially remove the job of the tank from 2h tanks is not fixing the issue but ignoring problems and forcing players to use Snb tanks even when they also are not optimal for all types of play.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?

No, shield tanks have their roles depending on the composition of the group just like the need for different dps classes depending on the type of group being formed. Still, I believe shield tanks do lack in the arsenal of abilities that they provide (mainly not having access to a 10 sec super punt). Shield tanks do not necessarily need to do as much damage as 2h tanks, but they must provide a little more than just HTL spamming and being a damage sponge that just need to be punted away.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.

Yes, absolutely. 2h tanks are essentially still tanks. By reducing the guard damage to 25%, these tanks cannot fulfill their part in a 6 man group. 2h tanks may have the potential to deal a lot of damage, but at the end of the day, they are still tanks not dps. Their job is to still take on the damage of their group in order for the entire group to focus on their jobs. Furthermore, Not all 2h tanks are dps as well. Knights are mainly 2h tanks because of access to arcing swing and a 10 second punt not because they can dish out significant damage. BG's spec 2h for crimson death (and again access to a 10 second punt). Having a 2h weapon does not always mean that a tank is trying to do more damage. It's more so the abilities they gain with the down side of being less defensive.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters

As of now I do believe they are more attractive in small scale groups, just because the current state Snb tanks are at is not ideal for small scaled situations. If some changes are made to Snb tanks, they maybe have more importance in small scaled encounters.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, How?

I do not think they are. Snb tanks have their advantages just like 2h tanks. A Snb tanks is more ideal in WB play because of the large scale. 2H tanks have their advantages in other situations. This doesn't mean one is better than the other. It just depends on the battle taking place.

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Arbich
Posts: 499

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#55 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:31 pm

1) Do you have a Tank?
Yes, a Kobs rr60something

2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
As tank 6-man or grouped at least.

3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
No, guard is the core mechanic of the archetype tank. No matter how good your cc is, if you dont provide guard as a tank, you are garbage.

Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
Yes, I believe this. The reasons are balance decisions in the past. You could change this, by giving snb tanks some skills back, which are now exclusively for 2hand. But then there will be still one better option (either snb or 2hand, depending on what skills are available for each spec). So, I doubt you will get more diversity (which is the goal, I guess). I think a better idea, which was already proposed in this thread and others and is worth testing at least, is giving the ability guard a cooldown which will be reduced to 0, when you equip a shield. This would make groups with 2 2hand tanks vunerable to punts and quick target switches, which rewards awareness. Can´t really gauge the impact, but its worth a try.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
Yes, definitively. Already explained that it is the most important ability for tanks.

Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?
Yes, cause of available cc.

Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?
what means overperform? 2h tanks are superior in small scale/scenarios, snb tanks are superior in large scale, especially stalemates.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#56 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:55 pm

Thank you very much for your feedback.

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