[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

[Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#1 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:15 pm

This discussion pertains to the Tank ability, Guard, which is a core ability that is available to all tanks. You are cordially invited to give your feedback on the current version of Guard.

There also exists a survey in-game: go to your capital city, and it will appear on your screen after a few seconds.


For information on how to structure your feedback, please refer to this thread prior to giving your feedback. It is imperative that you structure your feedback as per the given structure in the aforementioned link.


It is imperative that you check out Step Two of this thread for rules and guidelines on giving feedback.

CLOSE DATE: 29th MARCH @ 20.00 ALTDORF



Note: If you do not adhere to the structure that is required, your post will be subject to moderation, and possible deletion (should you continue to do so):

1) Do you have a Tank?
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Subsequent posts that do not conform to this may be deleted. If users persist in ignoring these instructions, they may incur a warning.




Guard: The change itself
  • If equipping a two-handed weapon (Axe, Hammer or Sword), the effectiveness of your Guard ability will be reduced to 25%
  • If equipping a shield, the effectiveness of your Guard ability will remain at 50%


Reasoning behind said changes
  • A perceived lack of shield tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters
  • A perceived lack of usefulness for shield tanks
  • A perceived abundance of two-handed tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters, that some attribute to the fact that they bring specific utility & damage that shield tanks do not


Questions for you to bear in mind while giving your feedback
  • Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? Explain your reasoning.
  • Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, how could we improve this?
  • Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Explain your reasoning.
  • Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? If so, why?
  • Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? If so, how?
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blakokami
Posts: 103

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#2 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:20 pm

Disclaimer - My perspective comes from a 6man perspective. I have played all tanks to rr70+. I prefer sc's, roaming with a 6 man, and 6v6. I believe that in those area's the current 2h guard change has pretty much made a 2h tank not worth bringing in a group. I have lead organized WB's at some points too (all 24 ppl in discord) and I do not see how a 2h tank could be viable in large scale RvR either. Guard is the most important and iconic ability to a tank. Without the ability to guard properly a tanks usefulness is diminished quite a bit.

The change should be reverted therefore in my opinion. If the team wants SnB tanks played more outside of large scale RvR then they can just revert some of the many nerfs that were handed to SnB tanks over the years. Let me go into more detail about how some of the changes to tanks have created this problem where most people dont want to use SnB anymore in smale scale.

[Reasoning behind said changes]
A perceived lack of shield tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters
A perceived lack of usefulness for shield tanks
A perceived abundance of two-handed tanks in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters, that some attribute to the fact that they bring specific utility & damage that shield tanks do not


All of the reasoning basically comes down to the fact that SnB tanks have been nerfed over and over. For example - Knight and Chosen super punt with SnB is 20 seconds instead of 10 like it used to be. For BO, the aoe snare was nerfed to 20% instead of 40% and THC was changed to be 2h only. For both Chosen and BO, their morale pump tactic was nerfed very hard to the point of being useless in small scale at least. Chosen no longer has Crippling strikes. BG Force of Fury has been nerfed; It used to be a flat 45% crit chance decrease. Now I believe it is 45% of your current chance to be crit unless they reverted it without me knowing. Knight's Dirty tricks was nerfed from 10% to 5%. Knight can no longer use Encouraged Aim in SnB ( or the new tactic that is based on using the wounds debuff). I do have to admit that SM,BG(SnB only), and IB have been largely untouched throughout this servers life though. I think SM has been only buffed even, same with IB. Bring back old heavens blade back thought for SM ;))). But I think the changes above are a big reason you dont see as many SnB tanks. Most people I play with or that I play against felt that they were being forced into playing 2h tanks because of all of these changes over time.

Do you agree with the direction that the team has taken in regards to Guard? No I don't. Reasoning above
Do you believe that shield tanks have no role in Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? They have a role for sure. But 2H was more viable because of all of the changes over the past years.
Do you believe that a two-handed tank should have access to a 50% Guard? Yes I do. It is the most integral ability a tank has and without it a tank can't properly "tank"
Do you believe that a two-handed tank is more attractive for Scenarios & Small-scale encounters? Yes. For the same reasons I already mentioned.
Do you believe that two-handed tanks are overperforming? No, I just believe that SnB tanks are underperforming.
Last edited by blakokami on Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Grolar
Posts: 509

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#3 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:25 pm

1. My main is a Black Orc tank.
2. I play both 6 man and in Warbands.
3. Glad to see you guys are seemingly encouraging more SnB tanks. Never thought the 2h Black Orc was a worthwhile option. I would like to see raze returned to Morale 2, since that's my preference.

The change should be reverted. If the team wants SnB tanks played more outside of large scale RvR then they can just revert some of the many nerfs that were handed to SnB tanks over the years.
Last edited by Grolar on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mexlicious
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#4 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:29 pm

Guard def needed a nerf since live. But 25% is to great. Why not make it 35%-40%.
This comes from a 3man-6man and SC scale.
I TankRR50, I Heal, I Mdps and Range,the one thing I dont due is play in a WB.
Last edited by Mexlicious on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Namubic
Posts: 6

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#5 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:33 pm

Spoiler:
Good job with the changes,it was a long time coming
Please amend your post by using the format that is required in the OP:

1) Do you have a Tank?
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Once you have amended the format of your post, you may feel free to remove my edit and spoiler from your post.

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3700

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#6 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:37 pm

I have a BO rank 40+

I speak from the perspective of solo, duo/trio roam, SC and organized warband play

2H tanks already were at a deficit compared to SnB tanks due to the latter having also block to mitigate damage

on top of losing access to HTL! and abilites and tactics linked to block requirements like morale pumps

so for slightly higher dps and utility in other area's there is already sufficient existing trade off


The recent changes to guard are unnecessary because 2H tanks were in no way over-performing regardless of what might be believed in small scale were they are liked more for their longer punts and on demand CC but these changes were made to compensate them vs SnB tanks options

SnB tanks also still have a place in oRvR as HTL is a key ability to mitigate RDPS spam additionally on destro SnB chosens/BO are still mainstays in organized warband play in oRvR and forts for raze morale bombing due to morale pumps

The guard change should be reverted, if you want to make SnB specs more appealing then you should make SnB more fun to play and revert some of the previous changes like THC being 2H only etc
Last edited by TenTonHammer on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Niky
Posts: 198

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#7 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:40 pm

Spoiler:
All classes using a hybrid of specialization receive a penalty. 25% for 2h is good.

Only one Clowns reason for 50% 2h guard is:

- All 2h order tanks have self def ability and morales.
- Crit, wounds debuf, three mdps party with 2h SM.
Please amend your post by using the format that is required in the OP:

1) Do you have a Tank?
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Once you have amended the format of your post, you may feel free to remove my edit and spoiler from your post.
Last edited by Niky on Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jailbaite
Posts: 5

Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#8 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:41 pm

1) I do have tanks that I play, but not competitively. I just know how they work functionally in groups.

2) I am speaking from the perspective of a support class that sees how my groups take damage and engage in fights from a distance. I usually do scs and 6man play. Small scale stuff.

3) Honestly change could add to the diversity of group makeups that are viable. Currently in small scale fights melee trains cannot be countered. There's only one type of group to run if you want to be seriously competitive. Forcing tanks to go sword and board reduces damage output and gives casters a little more room to breathe. If you've noticed, absolutely no one chooses ranged classes in 6v6. Isn't that what the game was intended to be balanced around? Melee and rdps in 6v6 fights? This will open up a lot more variety in pvp and honestly feels kind of refreshing. I always thought 2H tanks should have to sacrifice something for that extra damage. Most people run with double tank anyways so you can still guard swap with the main 1H tank.

Perhaps there is something else you can give back to 2H tanks that has nothing to do with guard. Give them more unique mobility, utility, etc.
Last edited by Jailbaite on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#9 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:45 pm

A reminder that all posts MUST adhere to the format as is requested in the OP:

1) Do you have a Tank?
2) What perspective are you speaking from (6-man, Solo, or WB)?
3) What are your thoughts (giving specific examples, and ideally with reference to suggested questions)

Subsequent posts that do not conform to this may be deleted. If users persist in ignoring these instructions, they may incur a warning.
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Acidic
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Re: [Tank Archetype] Guard changes

Post#10 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:47 pm

1) have bo tank 80+
2) orvr perspective, some sc
3)
Thoughts:
do not like the reasoning behind the change as you have described it above. There should only be a nerf for over performing and buff for underperforming.
Balancing from “perceived population ...” appears to be trying to direct the discution.

The perception that I have behind said nerf is due to 2h over performing. This over performing is causing over representation in small scale.

My thinking is the over performance is cabused by guard effectiveness with parry. Parry can stack high and as such guard is effective. In small scale tank tools such as HTL is reasonable irrelevant due to spread and movement speed. This means that guard snb type tank is not bringing anything interesting to the group.yes it lasts longer but it is over kill for most 6 man encounters. The extra damage brought by 2h is preferable to allow focus train.
Suggestion:
I would suggest that reducing the free parry tactics and weapon bonus could be a better direction than messing with mechanics

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