[RP] Concussive Runes

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Tenab
Posts: 9

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#11 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:38 am

footpatrol2 wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:36 am
Tenab wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:36 pm
Explain why it is an issue:
The tactic counters itself as it would only be useful when doing damage, but when you try to do damage it will break its own detaunt. It just doesn’t work.
That's not how this tactic works.

The damage doesn't break it's own detaunt and if it does... then RoR has it wrong and it's a bug.

This tactic is 'waz dat behind you' but in reverse. Slot armor tali's, armor tactic, regenerative runes tactic and this tactic and your near if not more tanky then a wp. Pick up a IB willpower buff and your solid. I used to use this tactic ALL the time... when I played a Rp.

You think this is bad?

Are you suggesting to add onto the tactic or to overhaul it? I can see adding on. I think it would be a mistake to overhaul it.
The detaunt does break on your own damage and so it should. Every single detaunt in the game breaks on damage and it would be broken if it did not. (And yes I suggest to overhaul the tactic)
Zumos - Red Guard

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1065

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#12 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:53 pm

Then it's a bug because that's not how AoR worked.

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lefze
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Posts: 861

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#13 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:50 pm

Tenab wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:01 am
AxelF wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:35 pm
The thing that a dps RP lacks, either ST or AoE, is burst. The ideal addition imo is a 'receives X damage after x seconds' type ability rather than just another DoT, though if it were a tactic it would probably have to be an 'x chance for x damage after..' type of effect which doesn't provide reliable burst you could build a rotation around.
There is no class that really has something like an AoE burst such as the single target burst of the BW/Sorcs. In addition many other vialble dps specs dont have any burst and are still really good. Think of Slayer or SW on order. I guess you could come with a proposal for some kind of single target burst ability if you want, but this is in the AoE tree :)
You are actually quite wrong, SW, SH, Engy, Magus, Sorc and BW all have aoe bursts, even the other classes have it but not quite in the same way.
Rip Phalanx

Tenab
Posts: 9

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#14 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:12 pm

lefze wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:50 pm
Tenab wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:01 am
AxelF wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:35 pm
The thing that a dps RP lacks, either ST or AoE, is burst. The ideal addition imo is a 'receives X damage after x seconds' type ability rather than just another DoT, though if it were a tactic it would probably have to be an 'x chance for x damage after..' type of effect which doesn't provide reliable burst you could build a rotation around.
There is no class that really has something like an AoE burst such as the single target burst of the BW/Sorcs. In addition many other vialble dps specs dont have any burst and are still really good. Think of Slayer or SW on order. I guess you could come with a proposal for some kind of single target burst ability if you want, but this is in the AoE tree :)
You are actually quite wrong, SW, SH, Engy, Magus, Sorc and BW all have aoe bursts, even the other classes have it but not quite in the same way.
Then you definition of burst is clearly different from mine. SW/SH really? Their "burst" is less damage than BWs/Sorcs spamming their AoE normally. You can argue that something like Fiery Blast + Fireball barage first hit is some form of burst. However, that is basically saying that (to take RP as an example) Rune of Striking + Rune of Fire is burst. Just a cast time ability followed by an instant cast. But even that AoE "burst" is obviously nowhere near single target burst (that would also be broken ofc). The biggest no morale AoE damage is probably FM spamming BWs/Sorcs if they not unlucky with the disrupts. Even that I can hardly call burst, its just very high dps for 10 seconds, rather a real spike. Burst is something you set up and goes off within 1 or maximum 2 gcds.
Zumos - Red Guard

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lefze
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Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#15 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:54 pm

Tenab wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:12 pm
lefze wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:50 pm
Tenab wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:01 am


There is no class that really has something like an AoE burst such as the single target burst of the BW/Sorcs. In addition many other vialble dps specs dont have any burst and are still really good. Think of Slayer or SW on order. I guess you could come with a proposal for some kind of single target burst ability if you want, but this is in the AoE tree :)
You are actually quite wrong, SW, SH, Engy, Magus, Sorc and BW all have aoe bursts, even the other classes have it but not quite in the same way.
Then you definition of burst is clearly different from mine. SW/SH really? Their "burst" is less damage than BWs/Sorcs spamming their AoE normally. You can argue that something like Fiery Blast + Fireball barage first hit is some form of burst. However, that is basically saying that (to take RP as an example) Rune of Striking + Rune of Fire is burst. Just a cast time ability followed by an instant cast. But even that AoE "burst" is obviously nowhere near single target burst (that would also be broken ofc). The biggest no morale AoE damage is probably FM spamming BWs/Sorcs if they not unlucky with the disrupts. Even that I can hardly call burst, its just very high dps for 10 seconds, rather a real spike. Burst is something you set up and goes off within 1 or maximum 2 gcds.
You are wrong about the amount of damage, BW/Sorc damage really isn't as good as people think, especially sorc as it doesn't have increased proc damage. And yes, cast+insta IS burst, and it's enough to get the kills.

Don't get why you bring up ST burst in this case, it's a completely irrelevant comparison. A BW won't slot Flashfire for the exact reason that it's still targeted AoE, which is bad because of disrupts. Most of the stuff I'm referring to isn't targeted, and as such while it's lower damage than a flashfire FB+FBB, it's way more reliable and you don't loose nearly as much pressure as you would when FB gets disrupted my main target.
Rip Phalanx

Tenab
Posts: 9

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#16 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:01 pm

lefze wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:54 pm
You are wrong about the amount of damage, BW/Sorc damage really isn't as good as people think, especially sorc as it doesn't have increased proc damage. And yes, cast+insta IS burst, and it's enough to get the kills.
You are just making claims without proof. You are allowed to call cast + instant cast burst if you want. Its totally irrelevant to the proposal however. And the damage of BWs/Sorcs is still top. And the reason sorc is worse than the BW is definitely not because of the proc tactic. (This is also irrelevant to the proposal)
Zumos - Red Guard

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lefze
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Posts: 861

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#17 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:49 am

Tenab wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:01 pm
lefze wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:54 pm
You are wrong about the amount of damage, BW/Sorc damage really isn't as good as people think, especially sorc as it doesn't have increased proc damage. And yes, cast+insta IS burst, and it's enough to get the kills.
You are just making claims without proof. You are allowed to call cast + instant cast burst if you want. Its totally irrelevant to the proposal however. And the damage of BWs/Sorcs is still top. And the reason sorc is worse than the BW is definitely not because of the proc tactic. (This is also irrelevant to the proposal)
Oh, I'm the one making claims without proof here? Can't see any proof in this post. And no, it's not claims, it's just the way it is. For the record, even though it's irrelevant, the procs are what makes a BW, along with fast m2, but I guess you guys don't even run the tactics lel. And Sorc doesn't even have the best damage on destro side.

Anyways, the point is that there is nothing wrong with giving RP some form of burst.
Rip Phalanx

Tenab
Posts: 9

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#18 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:13 am

lefze wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:49 am
Oh, I'm the one making claims without proof here? Can't see any proof in this post. And no, it's not claims, it's just the way it is. For the record, even though it's irrelevant, the procs are what makes a BW, along with fast m2, but I guess you guys don't even run the tactics lel. And Sorc doesn't even have the best damage on destro side.
Look at your first post and then my first response. You are the one making claims, I'm the one providing arguments. But this is just gonna turn into some useless discussion of who is better in the end, which isn't even about the RP. So for me this stops here.

lefze wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:49 am
Anyways, the point is that there is nothing wrong with giving RP some form of burst.
Let's rather focus on this, because turning the tactic into doing all its damage after 5 seconds is 1) not gonna provide the RP "burst" and 2) is just arguably worse than letting the damage for over time.
1) If you would change the tactic into doing all its damage in one go, it alone still is not burst. You also cannot try to set it up because of its random proc nature. So even in that form it wont provide burst, just delayed damage.
2) And that is the problem, when you're AoE bombing you want the damage immediately, not delayed. The tactic would just do a lot less damage because many targets will die before it even goes off. And some percent of who is not dead will have run out of your bomb and wont die anyway (also not with the damage of this tactic).

The other alternative, which I think is too strong, is to proc the full damage instantly. That way it would always line up with your AoE skill for a decent spike of damage.
Zumos - Red Guard

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samster
Posts: 85

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#19 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:31 am

Just a suggestion, since we're all talking here like buddies:
Turn the tactic into a jagged edge equivalent (if you go with adding deepsiness to RP)
ORRR
Increase the proc chance of the AOE detaunt (if you decide to let it be more or less like it is).

AxelF
Posts: 132

Re: [RP] Concussive Runes [Close Date: 10th August]

Post#20 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:32 pm

Tenab wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:13 am

1) If you would change the tactic into doing all its damage in one go, it alone still is not burst. You also cannot try to set it up because of its random proc nature. So even in that form it wont provide burst, just delayed damage.
That's why I sugegsted 3 seconds in my original post about delayed damage - the only two DoT abilities that will trigger it are Rune of Battle and Rune of Cleaving - both of which tick every 3 seconds. That means that if you got any procs on anything but the last tick, the extra damage would hit at the same time as the next DoT tick. You could also then line it up with instant cast damage such as Rune of Might 2 GCDs later (ie Rune of Cleaving, any other ability, Rune of Might), so that the Rune of Cleaving DoT tick, the delayed proc damage and the hit from Rune of Might all hit at the same time. As you say it's not guaranteed due to the random proc nature of the proposed tactic, but when it procced it would be useful.

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