[All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

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Flavorburst
Posts: 233

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#131 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:47 pm

Kretschmer wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:19 pm

This conversation concerning disrupt - and whether or not it is overperforming - assumes competent play/equal gear/equal skill levels. We are also asking people to provide proofs to backup their arguments (Rama, Simtex, etc.), because anecdotal, 'this will be devastating for X, y and Z!' arguments offer jack all, and are usually baseless. Arguments stemming from pug/'lowbie' environments, i.e. not optimised whatsoever or even trying to counter magical RDPS, are not to be considered. You assume that such discussions are done with the intent of facilitating to the farming of pugs and lowbies, that the people posting here have a hidden agenda, and this is completely incorrect; it stems from magical DPS arguing that competent, well-spec'd and geared healers negate their damage considerably.

As an aside: it is also an affront to us as balance mods. Dan and I have no interest in facilitating to pug farming when we open these proposals.

tldr; discussions concerning whether or not disrupt is overperforming are to be conducted: a) with empirical evidence to support any claims; b) assuming competent play - preferably within a group/WB environment, factoring in any debuffs/buffs that could help the caster out; c) assuming combatants are geared and specced appropriately in an effort to counter one another (I refer you to Simtex video). - ptp3
The problem that I have is that there isn't enough data accompanying these videos to consider them empirical.

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Ramasee
Posts: 456

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#132 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:45 am

peterthepan3 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:16 pm
Spoiler:
I've always found the concept of punishing a person for disrupting/defending an ability rather odd, but that's just me. I can see its use/need in situations where you are up against someone with decked-out defenses, so there is that.
Personally? I would much rather see disrupt given a hardcap of around 30%, while allowing HTL to go beyond this hardcap, possibly promoting the use of SNB tanks in all environments.
Do we do that to just disrupt? Or are we doing this to dodge, parry, and block? Are we doing this before or after strikethrough? Since we are capping avoidance, do we look at capping offensive stats, for instance putting caps on chance to critically hit.

There currently is an opportunity cost for stacking disrupt rates that are higher than 30% without using HTL. Placing a hardcap specially a low one, just makes gearing a hit this marker, go to next stat, hit that marker, etc etc. Also what other things can go past this 30% mark, specially if applied to other avoidance?

An equally geared healer should never be threatened by an equally geared dps that is detaunted unless the game's meta becomes 3 healers per 6 players. This becomes even moreso if you are geared defensively against that specific kind of damage. During test 3 and test 4 of our 500 hit tests (tests with willpower but no deft defender so 22% true disrupt), there were a couple of times without any CC that the magus dropped me below 25% hp.

Healing values in this game are lower than most other games due to how damage is avoided, mitigated, and spread out among the team (guard). Mitigation particular disrupt is too high atm, which I hope i conveyed with our test, math, and suggestion, but if you lower it by too much you will start to see fights end before m1s are even reached.

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Wdova
Posts: 396

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#133 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:59 am

There are several option to solve "disrubt is too high" issue which was presented in this discussion.

A) Remove HTL stacking to each other.

B) tone down bonus from renown investment

C) make it positional same as parry and block(This make a sence to me, but it doenst solve disrubting each dot tick)

D) Cap disrubt chance to 30%(combined value from renown, gear and tactics)(Does anyone else have that high value than Tanks with HTL or healers?)

E) Make inteligence strike thru contribution higher

F) combination of ideas above

I personaly doesnt like ideas about strike thru percentage based on a range from target which is too complex hard to maintain(who has addon to check distance from Your target?)
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Nidwin
Posts: 605

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#134 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:24 am

Ramasee wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:45 am
Healing values in this game are lower than most other games due to how damage is avoided, mitigated, and spread out among the team (guard). Mitigation particular disrupt is too high atm, which I hope i conveyed with our test, math, and suggestion, but if you lower it by too much you will start to see fights end before m1s are even reached.
I agree with this and we have to be careful to not over power magical damage by applying a too big nerf to disrupt.

But it needs to be looked at as there's step by step a disrupt meta getting in place including willpower stack and not only for healers. On destruction side, pug warbands, a lot of zealots are applying the wp/ini buff as standard for everyone and you often have to ask for the str/bal/int buff in party or personal tell.

Conq is at the moment top gear so there's still a need to spent a lot of stuff on main stats for most folks. But the more the game is going to evolve (invader next) the more there will be space for putting points/stuff into willpower resulting in higher disrupts rates for magical damage dealers all over the lake/place.

To give an example on my main, 40rr50 Magus I'm glass canon specced 45rpts in magical critt and I'm pusling at 900 int with an intel pot in full anihilator and 2 pieces of genesis. Because of the effectiveness of disrupt that I also constantly witness on my main I could easily start to build willpower from here on without cutting hard on my dps output.
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Lileldys
Posts: 622

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#135 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:54 am

Nidwin wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:24 am

But it needs to be looked at as there's step by step a disrupt meta getting in place including willpower stack and not only for healers. On destruction side, pug warbands, a lot of zealots are applying the wp/ini buff as standard for everyone and you often have to ask for the str/bal/int buff in party or personal tell.
Zealots give the wp/ini buff because:
1.) Chosen Resist Aura doesn't stack with the Zealots.
2.) The Str/Int/BS do not stack with potions.
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simtex
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#136 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:00 am

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#137 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:13 am

Flavorburst wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:47 pm
Kretschmer wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:19 pm

This conversation concerning disrupt - and whether or not it is overperforming - assumes competent play/equal gear/equal skill levels. We are also asking people to provide proofs to backup their arguments (Rama, Simtex, etc.), because anecdotal, 'this will be devastating for X, y and Z!' arguments offer jack all, and are usually baseless. Arguments stemming from pug/'lowbie' environments, i.e. not optimised whatsoever or even trying to counter magical RDPS, are not to be considered. You assume that such discussions are done with the intent of facilitating to the farming of pugs and lowbies, that the people posting here have a hidden agenda, and this is completely incorrect; it stems from magical DPS arguing that competent, well-spec'd and geared healers negate their damage considerably.

As an aside: it is also an affront to us as balance mods. Dan and I have no interest in facilitating to pug farming when we open these proposals.

tldr; discussions concerning whether or not disrupt is overperforming are to be conducted: a) with empirical evidence to support any claims; b) assuming competent play - preferably within a group/WB environment, factoring in any debuffs/buffs that could help the caster out; c) assuming combatants are geared and specced appropriately in an effort to counter one another (I refer you to Simtex video). - ptp3
The problem that I have is that there isn't enough data accompanying these videos to consider them empirical.
Regarding Simtex vid: he gave us gear he was using, his int values, and the gear the WP was using (BIS RVR). It's logical to conclude that WP was spec'd to counter magical DPS - as you said - but being able to disrupt 5/6 abilities in a row has sorta begged the question 'Is disrupt overperforming vs magical DPS' (and given birth to this topic).

I'm in agreement with you that a healer spec'd to counter magical DPS should be somewhat efficient at doing this, but when said healer isn't forced to use their detaunt once (!) during a 2 minute encounter (another reason why this video is worth referring to), I think this is a bit different.

While this may not be empirical enough for you, just the mere fact that Simtex posted a video showcasing his findings is appreciated by me. Most people are reliant on hyperbole/hearsay on these balance forums, and never present a modicum of evidence to backup their claims.
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Ramasee
Posts: 456

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#138 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:29 am

I appreciate his video only because its basically the same thing we did. You can view it as supplementary material to test1 since the gearing is similar there. However, the way the video was presented with no supplementing data from him created the problem of lesser informed people viewing it as entirely useless.

I will state that disrupting 5/6 abilities in a row during a 2 min test isn't that uncommon. You would do that with a 10% real disrupt on occasion. Sample size of the video does not adhere to the law of large numbers. Also the game seems to disrupt in chains specially if the ability's timestamps are near each other, but that's an observation that I have never fully tested. However, it wasn't uncommon in older version of rng coding in games to have large amounts of strings of events.

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peterthepan3
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#139 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:32 am

Ramasee wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:29 am
Also the game seems to disrupt in chains specially if the ability's timestamps are near each other, but that's an observation that I have never fully tested.
Would definitely be worth testing, even if proven to be wrong. More testing = more results = more feedback/potential solutions (if deemed necessary, of course: I am merely a facilitator to this discussion, and have no particular leaning).

I am also in agreement that a 2minute segment isn't indicative of the larger picture, but I suppose we must start somewhere, and highlighting 'extreme cases' of disrupt chains (if they are extreme) is a good initiator; are such situations rare? was this a one-off? how do your results vary/differ from Simtex? etc.
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Nidwin
Posts: 605

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#140 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:47 am

Lileldys wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:54 am
Nidwin wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:24 am

But it needs to be looked at as there's step by step a disrupt meta getting in place including willpower stack and not only for healers. On destruction side, pug warbands, a lot of zealots are applying the wp/ini buff as standard for everyone and you often have to ask for the str/bal/int buff in party or personal tell.
Zealots give the wp/ini buff because:
1.) Chosen Resist Aura doesn't stack with the Zealots.
2.) The Str/Int/BS do not stack with potions.
I know that, but I've ran with toughness pots and not Int pots for weeks and was still getting the "standard" ini/wp Zealot buff.
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