[All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.

Moderators: Balance Forum Mod, Developer, Management, Game Master, Community Manager, Moderator, Web Developer

User avatar
Nidwin
Posts: 605

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#121 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:14 pm

I like the positional disrupt strikethrough idea for magical abilities to compensate for the actual higher disrupt rates. I'm not that good at throwing in numbers so won't, especially that I've a personal interrest in this with my main.

I can also see it as a higher risk higher reward and it'll certainly push folks to up their gameplay in an x amount of situation. Uppping their gameplay on both magical damage dealing and receiving side.

And as dots have now a check on each tick a positional check between caster and target(s) shouldn't be that hard to add.

I would also suggest the need for the caster to properly face his target(s) and not just positioned behind or on the rear side.

my two cents here
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

Ads
Kretschmer
Posts: 41

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#122 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:19 pm

Spoiler:
Im totally against implementing huge disrupt strikethrough bonuses.
This will be used mainly to farm lowbies even more efficiently, not in group vs group env or high end gear fights (very low % of players). I have several casters above 40/40 myself (Magus,AM, BW) on both sides and i enjoy plying them without need for any changes. Also i do feel those involved into proposal - after it will pass will just sit on their casters into 6 mans and happy farm lower geared ppl.
Recently i witnessed return of known sorcerer from past (lets call him R. - K. - S.) and i saw how entire scaenario rotations are frozen for few hours due to this sorc and his group farming into oblivion. It will be small zerg such casters waiting for.. nothing after change coz ppl will leave scs. Real problem here is lack of help/guides for lower level/ new/ incoming players, bad geared ppl and low population. Also very small minority from already low number ppl using forum here tends to have too big impact on changes touching everyone.
I support and respect this server and devs/GMs here, i think lots of changes and last event are amazing. Im here since t2 was released but huge change like this combined with lack of help for returning and new players (most of them leave before reaching 40 level - real start of game,even forum lacks guides and places where they can easily find help) can push me and mine 2 small guilds out of this game.
This conversation concerning disrupt - and whether or not it is overperforming - assumes competent play/equal gear/equal skill levels. We are also asking people to provide proofs to backup their arguments (Rama, Simtex, etc.), because anecdotal, 'this will be devastating for X, y and Z!' arguments offer jack all, and are usually baseless. Arguments stemming from pug/'lowbie' environments, i.e. not optimised whatsoever or even trying to counter magical RDPS, are not to be considered. You assume that such discussions are done with the intent of facilitating to the farming of pugs and lowbies, that the people posting here have a hidden agenda, and this is completely incorrect; it stems from magical DPS arguing that competent, well-spec'd and geared healers negate their damage considerably.

As an aside: it is also an affront to us as balance mods. Dan and I have no interest in facilitating to pug farming when we open these proposals.

tldr; discussions concerning whether or not disrupt is overperforming are to be conducted: a) with empirical evidence to support any claims; b) assuming competent play - preferably within a group/WB environment, factoring in any debuffs/buffs that could help the caster out; c) assuming combatants are geared and specced appropriately in an effort to counter one another (I refer you to Simtex video). - ptp3

User avatar
Luuca
Posts: 1216

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#123 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:43 pm

Kretschmer wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:19 pm
Im totally against implementing huge disrupt strikethrough bonuses.
This will be used mainly to farm lowbies even more efficiently, not in group vs group env or high end gear fights (very low % of players). I have several casters above 40/40 myself (Magus,AM, BW) on both sides and i enjoy plying them without need for any changes. Also i do feel those involved into proposal - after it will pass will just sit on their casters into 6 mans and happy farm lower geared ppl.
Recently i witnessed return of known sorcerer from past (lets call him R. - K. - S.) and i saw how entire scaenario rotations are frozen for few hours due to this sorc and his group farming into oblivion. It will be small zerg such casters waiting for.. nothing after change coz ppl will leave scs. Real problem here is lack of help/guides for lower level/ new/ incoming players, bad geared ppl and low population. Also very small minority from already low number ppl using forum here tends to have too big impact on changes touching everyone.
I support and respect this server and devs/GMs here, i think lots of changes and last event are amazing. Im here since t2 was released but huge change like this combined with lack of help for returning and new players (most of them leave before reaching 40 level - real start of game,even forum lacks guides and places where they can easily find help) can push me and mine 2 small guilds out of this game.
I do not agree that "farming Lowbies" is a valid reason not to adjust the Disrupt Strikethrough for casters. "Lowbie" is a transitional state. It is a factor of playtime, gear, and contribution. Given a long enough time span, there are no more lowbies. As such, we must only consider the balancing for end-game gear, spec, and renown. If this were a discussion on Bolster, your points may be valid, but in the context of this discussion, farming lowbies does not matter.

I am not advocating for the way it was before the contribution of Willpower was corrected, but a compromise of change based upon risk-reward. A blanket nerf to disrupt - something you spend renown point, tactic slots, and talisman slots(WP) to increase -so that casters can have EZ Mode is not the way to go. I would like to see them risk something for the higher Spell Penetration as well as a scaling spell pen with risk. The higher the risk, the better the reward.
Image

Kretschmer
Posts: 41

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#124 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:03 pm

How big is this ideal real endgame gear specc and real top end renown group here? Less th 1% of all toons? Change will affect 100% ppl playing here. Lets take average typical 40 level from dps group (most popular) - now deduct big chunk from his disrupt - how it will feel?
How big group will be happy and how big group of players will just end up more frustrated?;)

User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#125 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:08 pm

Kretschmer wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:03 pm
How big is this ideal real endgame gear specc and real top end renown group here? Less th 1% of all toons? Change will affect 100% ppl playing here. Lets take average typical 40 level from dps group (most popular) - now deduct big chunk from his disrupt - how it will feel?
How big group will be happy and how big group of players will just end up more frustrated?;)
To reiterate: I am not interested in hearing about how any proposed changes may help competent players in killing badly organised/undergeared players. That has no bearing on balance: badly organised/undergeared/badly played players will die regardless of what changes are made, because they are...badly organised/undergeared/badly played.

This may come off 'elitist' in the eyes of some, but that isn't my intent. I just have to ensure that, as a balance moderator, the arguments being presented here at least stem from a place that adheres to balance rules; that people are presenting arguments in environments where proper play - gear, spec, equal skill (where possible), rr specced accordingly to adapt - is taking place.
Image

User avatar
Aurandilaz
Posts: 1660

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#126 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:12 pm

Another idea, not sure if possible without client control;
let all casters enjoy "Flashfire" as part of their core mechanic - without need of tactic.
Meaning when disrupted, next spell will be 50% faster cast and castable on move.
Currently BW suffers least as magical dps due to FF - because when feeling the misfortune of failing in spell landing it actually helps with next spell casting, the other 6 feel the pain in various ways.
So, Sorc-sham-zeal-magus-AM-RP-BW all have new core speciality (same way some classes have Parry from dwield, or various other stuff like SE/RF regen mechanic, Hatred mechanic, etc...).

inb4 BW loses its advantage over other casters; actually they would get another tactic slot open since no longer needed to slot FF if it were a core mechanic for magical caster classes, while still retaining the option to spec for BurnThrough tactic that is still quite potent.

User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#127 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:16 pm

I've always found the concept of punishing a person for disrupting/defending an ability rather odd, but that's just me. I can see its use/need in situations where you are up against someone with decked-out defenses, so there is that.

Personally? I would much rather see disrupt given a hardcap of around 30%, while allowing HTL to go beyond this hardcap, possibly promoting the use of SNB tanks in all environments.
Image

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#128 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:23 pm

Aurandilaz, if you’re going that route why not use the AM 10% strikethrough Core tactic(Discerning Offense) Note I would argue against that, just wondering why you went with FF instead of an actual anti disrupt tactic that is already Core...

Give me a magic wand and I would empower 1-2 abilities on a few of the casters with WP Debuffs and Reduced chance to disrupt debuffs. But that’s me.

@peter hard capping avoidances is an interesting idea though, especially in conjunction with positional disrupt. So, say a cap of 25% from the rear. If you had 24% disrupt you wouldn’t suffer any disrupt debuff if hit from behind.... gotta mull that one...

Ads
User avatar
wachlarz
Posts: 228

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#129 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:08 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:12 pm
Another idea, not sure if possible without client control;
let all casters enjoy "Flashfire" as part of their core mechanic - without need of tactic.
Meaning when disrupted, next spell will be 50% faster cast and castable on move.
Currently BW suffers least as magical dps due to FF - because when feeling the misfortune of failing in spell landing it actually helps with next spell casting, the other 6 feel the pain in various ways.
So, Sorc-sham-zeal-magus-AM-RP-BW all have new core speciality (same way some classes have Parry from dwield, or various other stuff like SE/RF regen mechanic, Hatred mechanic, etc...).

inb4 BW loses its advantage over other casters; actually they would get another tactic slot open since no longer needed to slot FF if it were a core mechanic for magical caster classes, while still retaining the option to spec for BurnThrough tactic that is still quite potent.
Faster cast dont help on dots

Flavorburst
Posts: 231

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#130 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:43 pm

I don't really want to get into a convoluted nested comment string, but:
Tesq wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:19 pm
A) WB play is a lot different from small man / sc play. You can't just have solo casters able to blow up healers in a WB fight.

that is not really a balance reason, dont wanna blow up? spec by "invest" (and not for free) in def, is not enough ? use group play , passive unskill tankyness on a not tank class for free go against balance common sense and that would have to do with willpwoer anyway not with hold the line, for what i suggest 6 tanks will do what 3 do now, ppl will still have access to 45% buff just it would more hard to have it in sc.....

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. Currently, people are posting videos which feature them being disrupted a bunch and say "LOOK AT ALL THESE DISRUPTS!!1one!" when the target is still in relative danger. I am assuming (because no one will be forthcoming with actual numbers) that the targets are specced defensively towards magic, as I have noted before (so that comment was made with the previous statement in mind). Long story short: If you are investing heavily in magic mitigation, solo casters shouldn't be a notable threat.

B) Unlike tanks, healers don't do any (meaningful) damage, nor do they have as much (again, meaningful) cc.

they do meaningfull heal? wtf with cc, zealot/rune 6 sec stag is not good enough for ya? dok/wp stag m3? this is the plusultra of no balance, from your view point every class should be able to do anything so the game would be like a dam living power creep....healer have to heals leave cc to tanks,.....and some dps... and be tankfull all melee KD are still 3 sec-instead 2 as pre 1.4.7

The key phrase that you seemed to ignore in that statement was "as much". I am not saying that everything should be able to do anything super effectively. What I AM saying is that healers have LESS cc, LESS overall survivability, and LESS damage than most other archtypes, so being able to mitigate some magic damage (or trade that for mdps mitigation) IS the balance.


C) Unlike tanks, if you spec for high disrupt you will probably get blown up by melee.

D) This notion that 3-4 tanks just roll around in SC's spamming HTL 24/7 and hitting everyone with it is just ludicrous. I can't tell if you are being hyperbolic on purpose, or you just don't do enough scenarios to properly gauge how often it's happening. Hell, if I even get a bunch of tanks in an SC on order it's a rare thing, let alone have 1 of them use a well placed HTL, or furthermore a coordinated 3-4 of them. It's statistically ridiculous to use this as a point of contention.



Here is my impression of every tank that uses HTL in a scenario:

"Oh man, I am at 38% health! Better hit HTL and backpedal away like a mongoloid!"

In high end SC play, it's not even a thing (as lefze alluded to).ù

omg the fact that i said that "potentially" didnt ring a bell seems; so i will try to write EVEN more easier, the number of tanks which can use hold the line in sc also increase this problem because here we dont have a problem of premade vs premade, this is a general game problem and there are different things which counter rdps,

it dosent matter the meta we are having now which is a summ of UNBALANCE FACTORS SO WHO **** CARES at max its only relevant to make some additional nerf. Then i could even say if hold the line is not even needed to counter rdps then wtf are we even discuss about if it need a change or not ?! it's crystal clear that it gona be overkill when used if there would not even need it in first place so that the bad rdps became even badder with it.

if all are going 2h in sc i could not care less and so should do dev, there is an abbundance of disrupt right now, 1 of tools which

CAN

generating this it's hold the line, the "fact" that hold the line is the only cultrip or there are aswell other tools which make this happend is not an excuse to turn around away from the issue which is a

->too powerfull, generall, cheap, core, aoe, buff in small scale which is not designed for (is for rvr)

This is basically fear-mongering. If we are discussing the current state of pvp, then saying "but there COULD be 230948 tanks holding ALL SORTS OF LINES ALL OVER THE PLACE IN A SCENARIO" is an irrelevant, fallacious argument.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests