[All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

[lefze]

Why does there need to be a penalty to range at all? You can't reward a ranged class for going into melee range because their pretty much DOA. With all the pulls available in game if your within 30 ft of an Engi,Choppa,Magus your pretty much dead. The point of being ranged is to play at range. Ranged dps hit's harder because their glass canons and melt when hit by melee, and given the close rate plus pulls we die quick enough.

Cast a 2 second spell and it's disrupted, another one and it's disrupted, another and it's disrupted. So for 6-7 seconds you have done 0 effective damage against a target. Luucca's Proposal would be fine except ranged dps shouldn't be sub 40 yards. Under that and we are turned into melee pretty quickly and then dead.

BW fireball already has a strike through tactic so it really is a moot point in this discussion.

Arguably the whole endgame is based on ranged dps going into melee range, bombing is a thing afterall. Try doing warband vs warband+ with only singletarget ranged dps sitting at max range. And all ranged classes have an effective bomb range of about 30ft.

[Luuca]

Why does there need to be a penalty to range at all? You can't reward a ranged class for going into melee range because their pretty much DOA. With all the pulls available in game if your within 30 ft of an Engi,Choppa,Magus your pretty much dead. The point of being ranged is to play at range. Ranged dps hit's harder because their glass canons and melt when hit by melee, and given the close rate plus pulls we die quick enough.

Cast a 2 second spell and it's disrupted, another one and it's disrupted, another and it's disrupted. So for 6-7 seconds you have done 0 effective damage against a target. Luucca's Proposal would be fine except ranged dps shouldn't be sub 40 yards. Under that and we are turned into melee pretty quickly and then dead.

BW fireball already has a strike through tactic so it really is a moot point in this discussion.

My proposal is not a penalty. My proposal is based upon "real world" ranged dps and applied to an issue "in game" ranged DPS is trying to solve; namely higher than preferred Disrupt rates. You only see the downside. Ranged DPS "shouldn't be sub 40 yards" and they would not be required to be either. There are still bonuses above 40 yards for them, it's just a risk-reward scenario for them at that point. Would it make "bomb" groups OP as in the last months (years?) of Live? I think not. Would it reward AoE MDPS groups, yes, but at the risk of standing within mere feet of MDPS. Risk - Reward. At 100 feet you risk very little, even with self-damaging abilities, and with the CC and escape tools, solo kiting BWs and Sorcs are not uncommon. SO I say, make it work as it does on the real battlefields. Being 10 feet away from an enemy does not guarantee a hit, but it's a hell of a lot easier to hit that guy than the guy 300 feet away.

[Trekman]

Honestly before added anymore defensive ability, naybe take a look at the current formulas and tweak them. Right now disrupt % scale to high and totally take out dot spec classes. There has to be some weak point in a classes where we can land full hits .

[Tesq]

the point of luuca proposal are sensed enough(and is basically what i wrote in the previusly by penril thread) just the problem will arrise in rvr where the rpds is still predomiante; especially sorc/bw bomb will just get buff, if any like that need to be implemented it need to keep in mind skill actually range not fix values so for exemple.

100 feet skills and 30 feet aoe skills still need to be have no bonus when used at max distance, and have to have the same bypass when used at 50 feet and 15 feet aka 50% OF MAX RANGE. It nee to be something proportional to not break other games cheks and range x castetime xtolltips balance.

So for exemple:

under 70% max range= 5%
under 50 max range = 10%
under 30 max range = 15%

so in the cases above a bw fireball would be

100 feet = no bonus
70 feet = 5% Bypass
50 feet= 10% bypass
30 feet= 15% bypass

so in the cases above a bw annihilate would be

30 feet= no bonus
21 feet= 5% bypass
15 feet= 10% bypass
9 feet= 15% bypass

even using this method which is very skill and coordination bases, there are still chance to make sorc/bw aoe op again, it would still be bettermaybe link that to st skills only.

i would still push for a change to disrupt from willpower calucaltion because that is a specific problem which sum on top of a general disrupt buff any can have via hold the line and dot disrupting.

second i will still make more ppl requiring to hold the line for have the max 45% value, that way sc would have less disruot shenaningans

For bombing, the problem with that is that while a lot of stuff has varying range, it's still used at the same effective range as anything below it. This gives an automatic edge to longer range AoE spells even though they would still be used at the same range as everything else. In other words capping max strikethrough to the lowest range of AoE spells 25/30ft) makes much more sense for uniformity. Bomb range is bomb range regardless of tooltip range. ST spells and strikethrough I have no opinion on, other than rangebased strikethrough being nonsense.

And adjusting HTL based on scenarios? plox.

That's why i said it should stick to st spells....

Plox?...please..refrain to not even analyze tbe problems...

1 tank can confer to 9 ppl 15% disrupt....it's wsy too easy profit from this.

Change hold the line buff on others value to 8% and increase stack to max 6 and still cap it at 45% this way wb play wont be influenced much and disrupt potential will get hit around 13%.

This is call make a skill scale WELL in different game enviroments without nerf it. Something this game lack to balamcs both st/soe and smallscale / rvr.

[Maeryk]

So the way I see this is, there are 3 outcomes here.
1 - Ranged dps single target specs would become ineffective and never played. Aside from BW/sorc, engie (magus would probably be fine since everyone is running the regen solo spec) and SW/squig would be absolutely gimped to the point where you would never see those specs again. The moment they step into a 40 yard range, they will get rushed upon and melted.

2 - Ranged dps specs would have to evolve to be tankier. Ranged dps do not have the armor / toughness on their gear to survive a melee train, thus they would have to buy talis / renown spend into defensive stats out the butt to just be able to survive being in range. With that being said, you are gimping your damage. What is the point of having strike through or benefits if your damage is so pitifully low that you'd never get a spot over an mdps?

3 - Ranged dps is gone. The game would devolve into the world of melee trains and tankhammer. There is no downside for them. Instead of making it difficult to get to the damage that (in the current meta isn't a thing) might be blowing them up, you are delivering them on a platter, or making them ineffective. A sorc / bw bomb group is pretty easily shut down with the amount of disrupt / cc / resists / interrupts available.

The moment you start letting real world physics / calibrations affect a game, you have to let ALL of them in. I get that you want it to be realistic, moving targets at a max range are more difficult to hit etc etc. You also have to realize this is a place where magic is in everything, from dwarf weapons / clothing to black orcs shields. Is it really that far-fetched to believe it can somehow imbue attacks with the ability to hit from that far? But if we talk about reality influencing our game, arrows would be more potent at a closer range than far away, a blunderbuss blast would hit one enemy 10 times if he's in front of you, or a fireball would not lose effectiveness from traveling through the air, and such would be more powerful. If you want us to get in that short of a range, strike-through is not enough of a benefit.

All this being said, if you really want to implement this change, you have to look at the current state of the game and do some tweaking first. I would say the toughest life in game at the moment is for bw's and sorcs. And I can't see this making life better. Melee is king right now, and it doesn't appear to go away anytime soon. The quality of life is too great for them. I also understand that people are scared of this change making casters op again and creating the bomb groups of the past. That (most likely) wouldn't happen. Those were scary because of the limited wounds from gear while bw damage being insane. The issue before was that the damage was too intense to heal before people dropped. With newer sets of gear the wounds has jumped pretty drastically. There is no way you can wipe a 9k tank without the healer responding at all, or even a 7.5k mdps.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. I love the game, and I am appreciative to what you guys do here. And I'm even willing to wait out the melee is king meta. But if this proposal went through without quality of life changes for rdps beforehand? There would be nothing left of order (saying this because they are 70% rdps).

That's my 2 cents. Feel free to pick it apart.

[Aurandilaz]

Random "new" idea (because probably already dozen threads discussing broken state of disrupts over last 9 months);
-revert changes done in last October back to the way they were before
-give 180 wounds tactic to all non-rdps classes (the same we had on live) [meaning SW, SH, Engi, Magus, Sorc, BW] - hand it maybe at rank 31 or 40, dunno

test it for a month

Because even before last October "meta" 6man groups did not include casters, and they still do not; meleetrains were better pick before and are still better pick. As for Wb vs Wb, who hits first and who has bigger mass usually decides fight, sometimes you might get rare 24v24 fight and then its most likely who gets first kills or who drops morals first that wins, or just better setup etc... (bunch of Sorcs vs bunch of BWs, who gets least disrupted maybe wins?)
Possible outcome; magical dmg actually lands even on healers, tanks can still HTL + Block, and possible non-rdps class victims have more wounds to counteract ranged burst. Meleetrains gonna meleetrain and healers can keep cleansing DoTs, and pugs keep dying business as usual (regardless of whether against meleetrains or good rdps players).

[Rodek]

All this being said, if you really want to implement this change, you have to look at the current state of the game and do some tweaking first. I would say the toughest life in game at the moment is for bw's and sorcs. And I can't see this making life better. Melee is king right now, and it doesn't appear to go away anytime soon. The quality of life is too great for them. I also understand that people are scared of this change making casters op again and creating the bomb groups of the past. That (most likely) wouldn't happen. Those were scary because of the limited wounds from gear while bw damage being insane. The issue before was that the damage was too intense to heal before people dropped. With newer sets of gear the wounds has jumped pretty drastically. There is no way you can wipe a 9k tank without the healer responding at all, or even a 7.5k mdps.

I think this is very well said. Everyone is concerned about Sorc/BW bomb groups, but I have to ask what do we have now? Simply it's Choppa bomb groups that do nothing but run around and pull. Really until that changes ranged dps will lose because we melt. Couple the current disrupt with guard and you can't touch a melee running around.

Bomb groups are already here, you see them all the time in SC and RvR. Now they just wear the melee hat instead of ranged. Drastically reducing disrupt is the only real way to remove the tankyness of melee, I have to believe there is a happy medium to what we currently have.

Great post Maeryk

[peterthepan3]

Melee bomb groups in SC...? What SC is this? Must've missed them.

[Rodek]

Melee bomb groups in SC...? What SC is this? Must've missed them.

Apparently you have. Pick any SC they're pretty consistent, Sorcs are mostly extinct. Choppa,Marauder,Chosen all day every day.

[lefze]

Some clarification might be needed here, bombing isn't a 6 man running around nuking people, generally when people talk about bombing, think more along the lines of an AoE warband. And preferably when bringing up rvr balance it should be done based on organized bomb warbands, too bad these threads seldom even mention optimalized play at all.

And no, 5 choppas running around rifting people is not relevant at all when talking about real bombing.