[Swordmaster] Forceful Shock

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Methryel
Posts: 27

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#31 » Tue May 01, 2018 12:45 pm

altharion1 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:09 am
SM can already have, in 1 spec:

- AoE root
- Double ST snare via Quick incision > Sudden Shift > Quick incision
- AoE punt that does AoE spirit damage
- ST punt via tactic
- Knockdown with 4 seconds CC immunity for group
- Silence with 10 seconds of reduced cooldowns for group
- Morale AoE snare
- Champions Challenge ST root

Doesn't the SM have enough CC already.
It's hard to have in 1 good spec , knockdown and silence since the last changes you know.
And if you compare with others tanks , i'm not sure that SM have much. what do you think?
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Methryel
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Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#32 » Tue May 01, 2018 1:12 pm

Spoiler:
Sry.
I deleted my post. It was indeed against the rules. I will take care next time :)
I don't know how make my own thread , i'm going to read rules first ^^
EDIT 2:
i did it :)
Irrelevant to OP. If you want to make a proposal, do so in your own thread. Going to start warning people who can't seem to grasp the basic rules of balance forums. - ptp3
Last edited by Methryel on Thu May 03, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dansari
Posts: 2476

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#33 » Wed May 02, 2018 12:04 am

altharion1 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:09 am
SM can already have, in 1 spec:

- AoE root
- Double ST snare via Quick incision > Sudden Shift > Quick incision
- AoE punt that does AoE spirit damage
- ST punt via tactic
- Knockdown with 4 seconds CC immunity for group
- Silence with 10 seconds of reduced cooldowns for group
- Morale AoE snare
- Champions Challenge ST root

Doesn't the SM have enough CC already.
I'm sorry but what.

AOE root: the thing that every tank has as a core ability?

Double st snare: you mean what knight and IB can do much better with a standard tactic, and is it even worth what you give up?

Ooo spirit damage. Much wow. Again something IB can do much better with a tactic, taken up by a vital perfect stance ability, that is not that powerful unless in specific situations.

ST punt tied to a potent focus target ability, rendering the ability relatively useless.

Crashing Wave and Whispering Wind you cannot get in the same spec anymore unless you're rr70.

Morale AOE snare that you'll likely kill yourself to proc.

Champ challenge root, the same as every other tank.

I would argue SM doesn't have much meaningful CC at all.
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CytheX
Posts: 68

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#34 » Wed May 02, 2018 8:37 am

Thanx to the 'another ninja nerf' u can jump and aoe snare without self punt to the dead.

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altharion1
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Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#35 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:39 am

dansari wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 12:04 am

I'm sorry but what.

AOE root: the thing that every tank has as a core ability?

Double st snare: you mean what knight and IB can do much better with a standard tactic, and is it even worth what you give up?

Ooo spirit damage. Much wow. Again something IB can do much better with a tactic, taken up by a vital perfect stance ability, that is not that powerful unless in specific situations.

ST punt tied to a potent focus target ability, rendering the ability relatively useless.

Crashing Wave and Whispering Wind you cannot get in the same spec anymore unless you're rr70.

Morale AOE snare that you'll likely kill yourself to proc.

Champ challenge root, the same as every other tank.

I would argue SM doesn't have much meaningful CC at all.
These are the counter arguments I, and many other SMs have faced since 2008 when requesting a ST punt on the SM. Obviously, they are deemed valid arguments as no ST has ever been implemented for the class. The SM can access CC, that is not the problem, the fundamental flaw of the SM is what it brings beyond CC, and that aspect is lacking (and set to only get worse as gear gets better). However, any person can come to these forums and request any random buff they like to fix the SM. While some of them might seem helpful or useful, if all of the requests were implemented it would fundamentally change the class into to something different, and the knock on effects would be difficult to predict.

Requesting random "buff this" or "give SM that" threads, seem only useful in pissing off the staff, rather than actually contributing to fixing the SM. It's time to accept that the SM will never have a long ST punt, knockdown anywhere but 13 points, armour debuff, stacking resist debuffs, outgoing heal debuff, the live server test patch stuff like defensive pounce/blade enchantment reworks etc etc that many people think are necessary additions to the SM. - Let's all give up and these and move on.

It may be more advantageous to fix the SM by discussing the truly broken/pointless/underperforming stuff. Like the multiple tactics/abilities that all do the same thing.

- 3x reduced chance to be defended against tactics
- 2x small healing tactics. Why have 1 tiny pointless heal, when you can waste 2 tactic slots on them.
- 4x DoT tactics. Potent Enchantments, Ensorcelled Agonny, centuries of training, deep incision. Why have so many, especially when some are vastly superior to others.
- 4x absorbs. Phantom's blade, Vauls buffer, Protection of Hoeth, Bladeshield.

- Underperforming Heaven's Blade and Phantom's Blade, compared to Nature's Blade and other tank mechanic buffs/debuffs.

Fixing this stuff may be a better way of achieving a more rounded and polished SM class.
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Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#36 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:41 am

Sooooooo SnB SM can no longer have both WW and CW.
WoH no longer stacks with Heaven's Blade (they did stack in retail).
Does this not result in a situation where SnB is no longer viable in either sc's and WB.
Kinda a shame since SnB SM was a good spec for warband play, whilst 2H was good in small scale play.

meh

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Methryel
Posts: 27

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#37 » Wed May 02, 2018 10:41 am

altharion1 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 9:39 am
dansari wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 12:04 am

I'm sorry but what.

AOE root: the thing that every tank has as a core ability?

Double st snare: you mean what knight and IB can do much better with a standard tactic, and is it even worth what you give up?

Ooo spirit damage. Much wow. Again something IB can do much better with a tactic, taken up by a vital perfect stance ability, that is not that powerful unless in specific situations.

ST punt tied to a potent focus target ability, rendering the ability relatively useless.

Crashing Wave and Whispering Wind you cannot get in the same spec anymore unless you're rr70.

Morale AOE snare that you'll likely kill yourself to proc.

Champ challenge root, the same as every other tank.

I would argue SM doesn't have much meaningful CC at all.
These are the counter arguments I, and many other SMs have faced since 2008 when requesting a ST punt on the SM. Obviously, they are deemed valid arguments as no ST has ever been implemented for the class. The SM can access CC, that is not the problem, the fundamental flaw of the SM is what it brings beyond CC, and that aspect is lacking (and set to only get worse as gear gets better). However, any person can come to these forums and request any random buff they like to fix the SM. While some of them might seem helpful or useful, if all of the requests were implemented it would fundamentally change the class into to something different, and the knock on effects would be difficult to predict.

Requesting random "buff this" or "give SM that" threads, seem only useful in pissing off the staff, rather than actually contributing to fixing the SM. It's time to accept that the SM will never have a long ST punt, knockdown anywhere but 13 points, armour debuff, stacking resist debuffs, outgoing heal debuff, the live server test patch stuff like defensive pounce/blade enchantment reworks etc etc that many people think are necessary additions to the SM. - Let's all give up and these and move on.

It may be more advantageous to fix the SM by discussing the truly broken/pointless/underperforming stuff. Like the multiple tactics/abilities that all do the same thing.

- 3x reduced chance to be defended against tactics
- 2x small healing tactics. Why have 1 tiny pointless heal, when you can waste 2 tactic slots on them.
- 4x DoT tactics. Potent Enchantments, Ensorcelled Agonny, centuries of training, deep incision. Why have so many, especially when some are vastly superior to others.
- 4x absorbs. Phantom's blade, Vauls buffer, Protection of Hoeth, Bladeshield.

- Underperforming Heaven's Blade and Phantom's Blade, compared to Nature's Blade and other tank mechanic buffs/debuffs.

Fixing this stuff may be a better way of achieving a more rounded and polished SM class.
I think you' re right about this. ST Punt ins't the top priority for SM. It needs some changes not a lot but somes. that's why i don't agree to get a ST punt , but i will push for a deep reflexion about SM (trees , tactics...). Why a group needs/asks sometimes for a SM: 1)nature's blade. 2)WW
Super punt won't change this
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Mystry
Posts: 315

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#38 » Fri May 04, 2018 8:53 am

Methryel wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:41 am
I think you' re right about this. ST Punt ins't the top priority for SM. It needs some changes not a lot but somes. that's why i don't agree to get a ST punt , but i will push for a deep reflexion about SM (trees , tactics...). Why a group needs/asks sometimes for a SM: 1)nature's blade. 2)WW
Super punt won't change this
A ST punt will solve the fact that SM is the only tank that literally cannot efficiently separate a tank from it's guarded target, which tanks (pun intended) its usefulness in groups. Either both targets go flying in the same direction and nothing is achieved, or you manage to get between them and send them flying away from each other...but also away from your DPS, which defeats the purpose. SM is an offtank that amplifies the pressure that DPS do to a target, even while SnB with resist debuffs and Blurring Shock. A ST punt benefits this role by removing guard from a target (at least until the tank runs back).

Also remember, as it stands SM DOES have a ST punt with Forceful Shock...except it ties that punt to Blurring Shock, which is the absolute last ability that you want to have a punt on. All I want to do is change it from Blurring Shock to Graceful Strike, and restrict it to SnB only (although to be fair, it already is pretty much SnB only since Khaine builds really can't fit Forceful Shock into a tactic setup without sacrifice a bunch of damage). And maybe add a teensy bit of range to it since it's pretty mediocre as is.

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CytheX
Posts: 68

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#39 » Fri May 04, 2018 9:38 am

Maybe instead of blurring shock for the single target punt use dragon talon or dazzling strikes, but not normal or improved stance. Second I don think that st punt need any kind of buff. For good punt u have ib/kobs.

Mystry
Posts: 315

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Close Date: 12th May]

Post#40 » Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 pm

CytheX wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:38 am
Maybe instead of blurring shock for the single target punt use dragon talon or dazzling strikes, but not normal or improved stance. Second I don think that st punt need any kind of buff. For good punt u have ib/kobs.
If you had read any of the previous thread, you would know that:
A. Dazzling Strike is regularly put on healers to nerf their cast times while attacking them, which means punting them away would defeat the purpose of the skill AND put them beyond your DPS (and yourself).
B. Dragon's Talon has much the same problem, in addition to being used in 1v1s, another situation in which you do not want to punt someone away.
C. Neither are able to be restricted to SnB only without unduly nerfing offensive Khaine builds' already poor utility.

Also, there's not much point in changing the tactic to make it usable if it still fails to perform its function. At its current distance, I don't think it even clears guard range.

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