[Swordmaster] Forceful Shock

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Mystry
Posts: 315

[Swordmaster] Forceful Shock

Post#1 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:37 am

Previous post in the spoilers:
Spoiler:
SM lacks in group utility compared to KoTBS and IB; everyone knows this. SM is widely regarded as the best 'offtank' because of its damage, but main tanking leaves a lot to be desired. Beyond the bubble-HoT build, which I will admit is great for self-defense, SM is very bad at supporting their group like the other tanks can. Part of the reason is the lack of a reliable punt. Gusting Wind is amazing in certain niche situations (mainly if there is a cliff nearby to throw several enemies off of), but outside of those rare instances it does little but spread immunity timers to a bunch of enemies. Its knockback distance is also distinctly subpar compared to both KoTBS and IB.

Instead of getting into the various builds of SM such as the Khaine, Hoeth and newly emerging Vaul, I propose to increase SM's group usefulness across the board by modifying one of the base tactics of SM: Forceful Shock.

As it currently stands, Forceful Shock causes Blurring Shock to knock back players and knock down monsters. It is virtually never used by any SM build, because it ties the knockback to Blurring Shock, which is a CORE ability, and causes you to knockback people when you really don't want to.

Instead of its current effect, I propose to change Forceful Shock to modify Gusting Wind into the single-target knockback that would normally be given to Blurring Shock. This will solve both the issue of constantly handing out immunity timers to a bunch of enemies when you didn't want to, and give SM the core ability to isolate a target and punt him into an allied group for extermination, abilities that both KoTBS and IB have but SM currently lacks.
Think of another ability to tie said tactic to, and get back at me. May also be worth tying an improved version of this tactic (as per your proposal, I hope) to SnB, so as to see more Shieldmaster incentives.
Originally, my desire to make Forceful Shock change Gusting Wind from an AoE knockback into a Single Target one was because I felt that a tank having both tools at the same time would be too powerful. But if that isn't the case, or if it isn't possible to code because Gusting Wind doesn't require a target, then the next best thing to tie it to would be Graceful Strike.

I wanted to tie it to a move requiring Perfect Balance, but there really just isn't one in which adding a knockback would nullify the point of the ability, and abilities requiring shields faces the same problem. SM only has two abilities that require a shield: Crushing Advance and (I think) Redirected Force. Both already have extensive effects. We can't tie it to Crashing Wave because the knockdown is needed to position the enemy for the knockback, a tactic which is extensively employed by every other tank in the game.

Instead of trying in vain to find an ability that defensive shield-users would use to tie it to, let's tie it to an ability that offensive greatsword wielding builds DON'T use: Graceful Strike.

Currently, no one uses Graceful Strike outside of PvE tanking. Khaine builds with greatswords avoid the ability like the plague because Ensorcelled Blow is superior damage-wise, and has a strong DoT with Ensorcelled Agony, which every single Khaine build uses. However, that does not change the fact that greatswords can use it (even if they don't want to), and I am also in favor of incentivizing more SnB for SM. Therefor, I propose the following:
  • Change Graceful Strike to require a Shield.
  • Change the Forceful Shock talent to apply its knockback to Graceful Strike instead of Blurred Shock.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#2 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:45 am

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (12th May).

A fan of making it affect GS and requiring a SnB. SnB SM doesn't do much, actually offers less personal survivability (wods >>>sm base block), so giving a ST punt - tied to a tactic - may give more attraction to the spec.

Thoughts?
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Mystry
Posts: 315

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#3 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:04 am

Well, you should know right off the bat that Graceful Strike does not require perfect balance. All of SMs perfect balance abilities have some effect tied to them - Dragon's Talon nerfs damage output, Dazzling Strike lengthens cast timers, Gusting Wind already has its AoE knockback, Crashing Wave has its 3 second KD, and Whispering Wind has a silence and a -5s cooldown modifier. I leave out Ether Dance because that's a Khaine-only ability.

Both Dragon's Talon and Dazzling Strike are used when actually fighting an enemy rather than trying to reposition them with a punt. Talon is for both duels and to nerf the DPS of enemies hitting your guarded target, and Dazzling Strike is great for delaying the cast times of healers.
Crashing Wave already has its 3 second KD, and as mentioned earlier, KDs are usually the prelude to the punt for optimal positioning.
Whispering Wind is EXTREMELY far down the Hoeth tree, and is strong enough as it is, in my opinion.

If it being on a Perfect Balance ability is really that big a deal, I would recommend it being attached to Dragon's Talon. It's the most flexible of them all; you REALLY do not want to punt a healer that your melee train is focusing when you go to nerf their cast times with Dazzling Strike, can't really put it on Crashing Wave, and Whispering Wind is in the same vein as Dazzling Strike - no point buffing your groups DPS if the target is just going to go flying away.

EDIT:
Forgot to mention, NONE of our Perfect Balance abilities require a shield, which means offensively focused Khaine builds could conceivably get access to a single target punt, and removing the incentive to go SnB. I still believing altering Graceful Strike to require a shield and tying it to that is the best option, even though it does not require perfect balance to use, as it will encourage people to go SnB and actually tank. And lets be honest here, it's not like perfect balance abilities are hard to get to. One Ensorcelled Blow and Sudden Shift and you're at perfect balance, which takes a single GCD.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#4 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:44 am

Spoiler:
My bad. assumed we were still talking about BS being the KB lol. needed my coffee!
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Ramasee
Posts: 456

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#5 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:35 am

Changing graceful strike to require a shield can hurt 2h style of tanking in PvE. It also removes a normal balance ability from 2h khaine or 2h hoeth when they only have 3. This can hurt you if you get a cooldown increaser! Forcing people to spec into sapping strike/protection of hoeth to avoid this situation because of your change. (Nearly all hoeth will take PoH, but Khaine sometimes doesn't)

The better implementation of your idea would have the Forceful shock tactic read instead: Whenever you are wielding a shield, graceful strike will knock back players and knock monsters down.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2714

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#6 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:33 am

My question is, do we really want every tank to be the same? I feel that adding another valid st guard punt to a tank is really lazy design. If you ask me the guard punt skill should be limited to 1 tank on each side.

You can add much more creative tools to tanks rather then just going with the standard guard punt tactics imo.

Example: If target is hit by 10 or more shocks from Bluring Shock within the next 10 seconds any guard effekts will be ignored for the next 5 seconds.
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dansari
Posts: 2471

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#7 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:31 pm

Seems odd to tie it to a normal stance ability, plus tying it to the hate generating ability? Seems weird and unnatural.
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altharion1
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Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#8 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:44 pm

Before we even go into exploring whether the SM should have a ST punt, or not; there are some issues with your proposal:

- Your proposal doesnt mention adding a cooldown. Youd just be able to spam the punt if it was applied to Graceful Strike in normal balance.
-Your proposal doesnt mention changing the length of the ST punt from the tactic. Even if you implemented your suggested change its still a pointless tactic as the length of the punt is so small.
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anarchypark
Posts: 1284

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#9 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:38 pm

be careful with word 'no one'.
i use it for 1st stance, with PoH mainly.
Ensorcelled or Grace, dmg is almost same with low str of tank.
I prefer DoT interrupt over debuffed ensorcelled dmg.

not much to discuss about issue.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Swordmaster] Forceful Shock [Repost]

Post#10 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:34 pm

I feel that giving FS to a Vaul ability would be best. It should require a SNB, lest 2h Khaine SM provide huge damage, BS, AOE KB and a ST KB (i.e. BG situation all over again). I feel that a CD would need to be given, and for this reason it can’t really be given to GS (a spammable that requires no stance). I also think it should be linked with Improved/Perfect stance abilities, to require some planning/stance dancing in keeping with SM theme.

Echo what Althi said regarding CD of ability.
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