[Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic

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daniilpb
Posts: 591

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#31 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:22 pm

Ramasee wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:12 pm
dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:44 pm
Personally I'd like to see Flame Arrow and maybe Steady Aim incorporated into the revamp of this tactic. Something like:

With tactic slotted, keep AP reduction, Flame Arrow range increased by 20ft (to match the rest of the tree at ~110ft when in Scout), and Steady Aim reduced by 10s to a 20s cooldown, with the build time effect removed for all Scout stance abilities. This gives you a short window every ~15s (6s buff timer, 20s cd) to apply burst damage instead of a flat damage increase across the board.
Flame Arrow range increase might be adding too many things to one tactic. I would suggest making a new thread on adding the range increase to flame arrow to Smoldering Arrow tactic since that one is already about increasing the effectiveness of Flame Arrow.

Reducing the cooldown and removing the build time increase while in scout stance for steady aim, I believe is much better for the woes of scout shadow warrior than my suggestion. Instead of keeping the constant 35% reduced AP cost, add it to steady aim as well (when tactic is slotted) and increase the potency to 50, or 75% reduction. This would keep the tactic focused on one aspect, burst damage window.
Steady Aim should not be tied to any of trees, it's a core skill and it's in a very bad state. It also should not be fixed through any of trees. It should receive a complete rework which was discussed already.
Flame Arrow is also a laughable skill, it won't be useful even with 150ft range cause it's damage is not even fluff. It must be reworked completely, therefore, it's not a part of this thread.
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Koha
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#32 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:10 pm

I love the idea, but the problem with scout tree always comes to ‘’tremendous burst’’ without notice... what we had with FA bypassing all resist (at that time flame arrow was still an instant raw damage worth a GCD... with vengeance and UF...).

Would it be possible to get a FA debuff at the beginning of the cast on the target ? Leaving 3 sec for the target to react (1.5 under Focused Mind).

My second concern is EE and Glass Arrow are not having any stance condition. Hydride Assault spec are gonna hit hard from near and far (+Acid arrow but losing healdebuff obviously)
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dansari
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#33 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:20 pm

Koha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:10 pm
I love the idea, but the problem with scout tree always comes to ‘’tremendous burst’’ without notice... what we had with FA bypassing all resist (at that time flame arrow was still an instant raw damage worth a GCD... with vengeance and UF...).

Would it be possible to get a FA debuff at the beginning of the cast on the target ? Leaving 3 sec for the target to react (1.5 under Focused Mind).

My second concern is EE and Glass Arrow are not having any stance condition. Hydride Assault spec are gonna hit hard from near and far (+Acid arrow but losing healdebuff obviously)
If you go a hybrid spec it would always be to Skirm imo. You wouldn't get Glass Arrow with an Assault spec, you'd get the heal debuff. The only time you really take advantage of Eagle Eye is with points in Scout.
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Olderico
Posts: 11

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#34 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:14 pm

As far as I been start to play WAR ,since closed beta, the most important step that this game make inside the PvP mechanical was to think as group instead of a single/solo playing.
In order of that the most important issue,from the begging of WAR ,was the balance through each of the 24 different classes (4 for each faction) .
In War there isn't a rigid specular system through each class: at the same time we have that a pair of classes (same type) share a class specific mechanics but a different ability on tree spec or rule.
This make most player to be confused and that because many of them start approach to WAR as they usually play on other mmorpgs where solo play is usuall.

About the SW, during my play experience in WAR from Gothor to Karak Norn server ( after merge and till the end) I even see the SW (high rank and good player) play on RvR by madness switch it's stance . Someone prefer scout spec, some other skirmish some less assault, but in any case their tell me ( and I saw) that the most important aspect of this class is the stance , use it to adapt in order of situation and choose all other aspect (morale, tactics and more) to warband/group coordination.
As I see in this forum section, many tread is open just to speak about a specific ability/tactic or similar. However many discussions goes to talk about miss mirroring or extend the case in object to all other classes that have similar problems or don't have.

SW share its class tree and stance mechanics to SH, but this are different ranged class.
SW is most likely to a pure ranged, SH is a ranged class with pet.
The point, I mean is that. As a pure ranged class,SW isn’t to be a nuker. Large AP consumed, enough time to cast make it in the same situation of all other ranged class that need to be stationary: weak!
SW didn’t have the same dmg output that we can found on caster but share the same weaker condition: casting time, stationary, ap consumed.
So, scout would help in group or warband but fell in solo play, if player force himself to stay and play only in this stance.

It's my opinion that make this change on a tactic can't help at all. There a lot of ability, tactics and morale from other classes that can help to increase the crit% or the % to do a crit.
This I assume because WAR was made to play in group/warband instead of solo.
I already know, there is some exceptions. But this is a large problem between classes balance that this game have from the begging.
So now we can solve this gap?
I think that a possible way to follow is look on what other similar classes have and try to apply on SW, to try to find a better way to have a good mirroring;
In this way I suggest to lower the % about AP consumed : from 35 to 25, but also put a decrease on casting time like 1sec, and cooldown to 1sec.
Spoiler:
This affect:
Festering arrow : cast 2, cooldown 4
Glass Arrow: cast 1s, cooldown 4
Throat shot: instant, cd 29
Rapid Fire: cast 2s, cd 6s
Flame arrow: instant, cd 9s
Eagle eye: cast 1s, no cd
Acid Arrow: 0.5s cast, 4s cd
Fell the weak: instant, 9 sec cd

OK.. no. With respect, this is a complete revamp of the Scout abilities, which is not what we're discussing here. We're discussing Guerrilla Training, an underperforming 11pt tactic. - Dan
In morale 2 ( FM) SW will put cast time down to another 50% for 10sec.
ATM don't remember if other classes may influence the casting time ( to lower it ) about the group/warband with ability/tactics/ morale

Imho
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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#35 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:24 pm

Spoiler:
Olderico wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:14 pm
As far as I been start to play WAR ,since closed beta, the most important step that this game make inside the PvP mechanical was to think as group instead of a single/solo playing.
In order of that the most important issue,from the begging of WAR ,was the balance through each of the 24 different classes (4 for each faction) .
In War there isn't a rigid specular system through each class: at the same time we have that a pair of classes (same type) share a class specific mechanics but a different ability on tree spec or rule.
This make most player to be confused and that because many of them start approach to WAR as they usually play on other mmorpgs where solo play is usuall.

About the SW, during my play experience in WAR from Gothor to Karak Norn server ( after merge and till the end) I even see the SW (high rank and good player) play on RvR by madness switch it's stance . Someone prefer scout spec, some other skirmish some less assault, but in any case their tell me ( and I saw) that the most important aspect of this class is the stance , use it to adapt in order of situation and choose all other aspect (morale, tactics and more) to warband/group coordination.
As I see in this forum section, many tread is open just to speak about a specific ability/tactic or similar. However many discussions goes to talk about miss mirroring or extend the case in object to all other classes that have similar problems or don't have.

SW share its class tree and stance mechanics to SH, but this are different ranged class.
SW is most likely to a pure ranged, SH is a ranged class with pet.
The point, I mean is that. As a pure ranged class,SW isn’t to be a nuker. Large AP consumed, enough time to cast make it in the same situation of all other ranged class that need to be stationary: weak!
SW didn’t have the same dmg output that we can found on caster but share the same weaker condition: casting time, stationary, ap consumed.
So, scout would help in group or warband but fell in solo play, if player force himself to stay and play only in this stance.

It's my opinion that make this change on a tactic can't help at all. There a lot of ability, tactics and morale from other classes that can help to increase the crit% or the % to do a crit.
This I assume because WAR was made to play in group/warband instead of solo.
I already know, there is some exceptions. But this is a large problem between classes balance that this game have from the begging.
So now we can solve this gap?
I think that a possible way to follow is look on what other similar classes have and try to apply on SW, to try to find a better way to have a good mirroring;
In this way I suggest to lower the % about AP consumed : from 35 to 25, but also put a decrease on casting time like 1sec, and cooldown to 1sec.
This affect:
Festering arrow : cast 2, cooldown 4
Glass Arrow: cast 1s, cooldown 4
Throat shot: instant, cd 29
Rapid Fire: cast 2s, cd 6s
Flame arrow: instant, cd 9s
Eagle eye: cast 1s, no cd
Acid Arrow: 0.5s cast, 4s cd
Fell the weak: instant, 9 sec cd

In morale 2 ( FM) SW will put cast time down to another 50% for 10sec.
ATM don't remember if other classes may influence the casting time ( to lower it ) about the group/warband with ability/tactics/ morale

Imho
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to call it irrelevant to the discussion but anyway thanks for your feedback, you are welcome to make your OWN proposal.
I believe, if you comment here, you should stick to the topic of the proposal.
np, I got it - Dan
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Fallenkezef
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#36 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:28 pm

50% damage increase AND 25% crit chance? No, that is overpowered from just one tactic.
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dansari
Posts: 2459

Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#37 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:39 pm

Fallenkezef wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:28 pm
50% damage increase AND 25% crit chance? No, that is overpowered from just one tactic.
tbf I interpreted it as a % crit chance to Flame Arrow and Rapid Fire and a % crit damage increase to the other Scout abilities.
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Fallenkezef
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#38 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:58 pm

dansari wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:39 pm
Fallenkezef wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:28 pm
50% damage increase AND 25% crit chance? No, that is overpowered from just one tactic.
tbf I interpreted it as a % crit chance to Flame Arrow and Rapid Fire and a % crit damage increase to the other Scout abilities.
That sounds a bit more fair
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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#39 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:01 pm

Fallenkezef wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:28 pm
50% damage increase AND 25% crit chance? No, that is overpowered from just one tactic.
Actually, it is less than ~30% damage increase ON CRIT and +25% chance for channeling and fluff dot.
We have the same tactic for Assault stance, so nope, it is not something really overboard.
Thanks for your feedback w/o arguments.
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Fallenkezef
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date Apr 22]

Post#40 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:05 pm

daniilpb wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:01 pm
Fallenkezef wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:28 pm
50% damage increase AND 25% crit chance? No, that is overpowered from just one tactic.
Actually, it is less than ~30% damage increase ON CRIT and +25% chance for channeling and fluff dot.
We have the same tactic for Assault stance, so nope, it is not something really overboard.
Thanks for your feedback w/o arguments.
You are most welcome, always glad to be of assistance
Alea iacta est

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