[Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic

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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#21 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:19 am

darude83 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:46 am
I do agree with you, that Scout SW has to pose a threat, i just disagree that a 50% crit increase is the right way to achieve that. I assume a significant percentage of the playerbase would not feel comfortable with it. A significant sustained dmg buff, with FA cast time of 2s, elimination of the AP issues, 1s AA etc would pose some threat, since FTW is still there to get kills.

Would it make the build desirable in smallscale grp? No it wouldn't, that lies in the nature of the current meta, and the total lack of utility in the Scout mastery. Would your solution fix that? The melee train engages, and then it's a short RNG game to determine who wins? Would we see the end of 2h tanks, because HTL becomes mandatory? How do you see the Scout SW with your proposed changes in a 6-man?

Imo Scout will never be great in grp, unless the dmg becomes so broken, that it would be worth it. Which also would destroy random pug zerging around a keep for example. But with one very desirable build, and one ok build SW is not in a bad place. How many classes with three viable talent trees for smallscale are there?

Scout doesn't have to be great in smallscale, it just should be better than it is now, for people who enjoy that playstyle.
Actually, this change can give Scout a chance in small scale. It would open a possibility to perfom coordinated strike supported with punts/staggers/morals. Currently, it can't go through guard/healing mitigation.
In case of quick focus/target switch/moral dump you have quite short amount of time to apply your burst. Actually in a matter of seconds. Of course, you should not kill a target instantly but you must nuke it to the health of hard comeback so It would have to flee/double pot or perfectly die in the next seconds from your sustained damage (Skirmish perfectly) and mostly damage from your allied dps. It's hard to perform with other casters because they have to predot/etc.
I must agree that it's not a perfect strategy and it doesn't work every time. But still, it gives a chance if your teamplay is on a high level. And I've seen people winning perfoming that.
And again the change to the sustained damage will just repeat the fate of Skirmish oriented builds. If your damage is always on the same fluff level, coordinated strikes won't help it. It's just my experience of small scale premade fights.
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Reesh
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#22 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:23 am

Klesko wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:51 am
dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:01 am
Toldavf wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 am
That's not even to mention that having such big stupid damage that comes with no warning is bloody murder for pugs nobody wants to be 3 shotted with no warning it's not a fun mechanic in any game.
That was going to be my main argument. You can prep for a normal sorc/BW rotation. You cannot prep for a 3k fester drop, and based on my understanding, you could easily see 3k crits if you get a +50% crit damage tactic (not sure about 4k, but feel free to supply screenshots that show otherwise).

Edit: Toldavf provided me with a ss of a 3k fester on him. I'm wholeheartedly against 4k festers, which it appears we would invariably see with a change like this.

I submitted a screenshot a while back of a Word of Pain breaking the RoR Damage cap... meaning it hit me for over 4k. For comparison's sake, that ability is insta-cast and also 100ft range, Fester Arrow has a 3second cast time! I bumped that thread endlessly, asking for feedback from devs as to why the damage cap was bypassed... Crickets. And now we suddenly have issues with seeing 3k fester arrows... this irks me to no end.

More to the point of the discussion, you can always exclude Fester Arrow from the 50% crit damage, if in fact that's the direction to take Guerilla Training. It is, as you say, a plenty hard enough hitting ability without any further help. I would think we can do something a bit more imaginitive with the the rework other than a crit boosting tactic, something more along the lines of helping a scout compensate for having to stay in place for their abilities (something to better help survival?)
I thought to myself similar thing, as I can provide lots of screenshots cut out from video materials of skills doing huge crits on me/enemies, just because of being close to warcamp, or debuffed into the moon with skills combined with morals by a proper 6man train coordinated assist.
Screenshots from those rare occasions doesn't prove a lot.

If that is still a concern, excluding fester from increased crit dmg modificatior might be an option, whilst adding +15% crit chance to it.
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Toldavf
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#23 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:27 am

Reesh wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:23 am
Klesko wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:51 am
dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:01 am


That was going to be my main argument. You can prep for a normal sorc/BW rotation. You cannot prep for a 3k fester drop, and based on my understanding, you could easily see 3k crits if you get a +50% crit damage tactic (not sure about 4k, but feel free to supply screenshots that show otherwise).

Edit: Toldavf provided me with a ss of a 3k fester on him. I'm wholeheartedly against 4k festers, which it appears we would invariably see with a change like this.

I submitted a screenshot a while back of a Word of Pain breaking the RoR Damage cap... meaning it hit me for over 4k. For comparison's sake, that ability is insta-cast and also 100ft range, Fester Arrow has a 3second cast time! I bumped that thread endlessly, asking for feedback from devs as to why the damage cap was bypassed... Crickets. And now we suddenly have issues with seeing 3k fester arrows... this irks me to no end.

More to the point of the discussion, you can always exclude Fester Arrow from the 50% crit damage, if in fact that's the direction to take Guerilla Training. It is, as you say, a plenty hard enough hitting ability without any further help. I would think we can do something a bit more imaginitive with the the rework other than a crit boosting tactic, something more along the lines of helping a scout compensate for having to stay in place for their abilities (something to better help survival?)
I thought to myself similar thing, as I can provide lots of screenshots cut out from video materials of skills doing huge crits on me/enemies, just because of being close to warcamp, or debuffed into the moon with skills combined with morals by a proper 6man train coordinated assist.
Screenshots from those rare occasions doesn't prove a lot.

If that is still a concern, excluding fester from increased crit dmg modificatior might be an option, whilst adding +15% crit chance to it.

There's not really allot of debuff that applies to festering arrow. The only two things in game that improve its damage are coordinated fire and any toughness debuff.

@OP what is the counterplay to somebody taking a scout rotation mid kotbs punt?
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dansari
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#24 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:39 am

Every class doesn't need to be "good" in every situation in game. Engy and Magus are pretty poor in small scale, but excel in large scale. In the same vein, I don't think Scout needs to be "the best" in 6v6.. BW/sorc certainly aren't because in the grand scheme of things, a melee train is always going to excel in those situations more than an rdps.
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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#25 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:13 pm

dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:39 am
Every class doesn't need to be "good" in every situation in game. Engy and Magus are pretty poor in small scale, but excel in large scale. In the same vein, I don't think Scout needs to be "the best" in 6v6.. BW/sorc certainly aren't because in the grand scheme of things, a melee train is always going to excel in those situations more than an rdps.
Scout certainly is not on par with Engineer in large scale environment (probably, you meant keep sieges mostly because in WB scale Engineer is just a pull/Pierce Defenses bot. Perfectly, you need 1 or maximum 2 engis for the whole warband. This is an “excellent” state I guess). So, where is the sense in playing Scout SW then if you can be much better at pugstomping with Engi/BW in large or any other environment. No one is willing to make something “the best”, the purpose is to make it competitive enough because it is not currently, else we’d see serious groups using this build. People aren’t idiots, they won’t ignore something good (look at the amount of WLs).
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#26 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:29 pm

Toldavf wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:27 am

@OP what is the counterplay to somebody taking a scout rotation mid kotbs punt?
Actually, this kind of situation is not that easy to perform since it would require very good coordination, timing and exceptions (kotbs won't get parried/blocked, SW won't be CCed immediately, other rng factors).
Logically, your own defenses. Acceptable amount of dodge, 0% chance to be critically hit (basically, full Futile Strikes), good amount of HP (basis 6v6 kit). SW won't one shot you in mid air and, probably, it will be the only enemy attacking you at that moment. You hit the ground - you double pot, get healed by healers m1, charge - you are gucci.
The simplest way to counter rdps setup is focused pressure. Rdps, especially Scout, can't do damage if you are chasing it and applying constant pressure else, if it would stop running away/kiting, you will steamroll it.
Last edited by daniilpb on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#27 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:44 pm

daniilpb wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:29 pm
Toldavf wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:27 am

@OP what is the counterplay to somebody taking a scout rotation mid kotbs punt?
Logically, your own defenses. Acceptable amount of dodge, 0% chance to be critically hit (basically, full Futile Strikes), good amount of HP. SW won't one shot you in mid air and, probably, it will be the only enemy attacking you at that moment. The simplest way to counter rdps setup is focused pressure. Rdps, especially Scout, can't do damage if you are chasing it and applying constant pressure else, if it would stop running away/kiting, you will steamroll it.
You can only push kiting groups so far, a good one at some point will have some form of window or even shelter, at that point it is not unsafe to assume they can try to kill something.

I am not claiming that fester will one shot people that would be silly and untrue, i would however say that with proper assist from another rdps and the proper follow up from a scout sw that dps classes for sure would die mid air.

Most melee have give or take 7k hp with rdps having a bit less then that a 4k crit is while yes not going to happen every time is just to much of a chunk out of that pool.

I understand what you want a level of dps that is competitive with other rdps archetypes while hitting a guarded target, but the problem is for competitive play that a pair of healers can restore a player to near full or actually full hp in between your casts certainly 2 seconds is more than enough to out heal eagle eye damage. That in my opinion is what makes the spec not work not a lack of large numbers.
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Ramasee
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#28 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:12 pm

Guerilla Training - Anytime an opponent dodges on of your abilities, the next path of the scout ability cast within 6s will have 50% reduced cast time and have no ap cost. This cannot happen more than once every 10s. (these numbers are placeholders of course)

This change would keep the original intent of the tactic by providing an ap cost reduction. It does not increase the damage of individual abilities but allows the SW to make up damage if an opponent dodges which will increase their overall dps on a single target.

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dansari
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#29 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:44 pm

Spoiler:
daniilpb wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:13 pm
dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:39 am
Every class doesn't need to be "good" in every situation in game. Engy and Magus are pretty poor in small scale, but excel in large scale. In the same vein, I don't think Scout needs to be "the best" in 6v6.. BW/sorc certainly aren't because in the grand scheme of things, a melee train is always going to excel in those situations more than an rdps.
Scout certainly is not on par with Engineer in large scale environment (probably, you meant keep sieges mostly because in WB scale Engineer is just a pull/Pierce Defenses bot. Perfectly, you need 1 or maximum 2 engis for the whole warband. This is an “excellent” state I guess).
Right. My main point is to counter your assertion that Scout needs to be able to damage through Guard. I don't think so. I think it needs to be more threatening via this 11pt tactic, but the way you deal with Guard is through control, not sheer damage. Similarly in the way you deal with healers is through spike damage, consistent pressure, control, and/or heal debuffs. I know you know this I just felt the need to clarify my post.
Ramasee wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:12 pm
Guerilla Training - Anytime an opponent dodges on of your abilities, the next path of the scout ability cast within 6s will have 50% reduced cast time and have no ap cost. This cannot happen more than once every 10s. (these numbers are placeholders of course)
I thought something along those lines as well, but I don't think this goes far enough to make the tactic worthwhile. To be sure, the long cast times are what hurt the spec, but beyond that it's also the lack of reliable burst damage on a consistent rotation.

Personally I'd like to see Flame Arrow and maybe Steady Aim incorporated into the revamp of this tactic. Something like:

With tactic slotted, keep AP reduction, Flame Arrow range increased by 20ft (to match the rest of the tree at ~110ft when in Scout), and Steady Aim reduced by 10s to a 20s cooldown, with the build time effect removed for all Scout stance abilities. This gives you a short window every ~15s (6s buff timer, 20s cd) to apply burst damage instead of a flat damage increase across the board.
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Ramasee
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#30 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:12 pm

dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:44 pm
Personally I'd like to see Flame Arrow and maybe Steady Aim incorporated into the revamp of this tactic. Something like:

With tactic slotted, keep AP reduction, Flame Arrow range increased by 20ft (to match the rest of the tree at ~110ft when in Scout), and Steady Aim reduced by 10s to a 20s cooldown, with the build time effect removed for all Scout stance abilities. This gives you a short window every ~15s (6s buff timer, 20s cd) to apply burst damage instead of a flat damage increase across the board.
Flame Arrow range increase might be adding too many things to one tactic. I would suggest making a new thread on adding the range increase to flame arrow to Smoldering Arrow tactic since that one is already about increasing the effectiveness of Flame Arrow.

Reducing the cooldown and removing the build time increase while in scout stance for steady aim, I believe is much better for the woes of scout shadow warrior than my suggestion. Instead of keeping the constant 35% reduced AP cost, add it to steady aim as well (when tactic is slotted) and increase the potency to 50, or 75% reduction. This would keep the tactic focused on one aspect, burst damage window.

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