[Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic

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Manatikik
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#11 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:04 am

I feel like 50% Crit damage would fix a lot of Scout's burst issues but fix it in a way that isn't good for the class or the game. As already mentioned it would make fester deal too much surprise burst damage (as opposed to a Sorc/BW) and if you combine it with FM + WW then no one could stand up to that damage. It also just feels like a cop out change to mirror what helped (in part) Assault become viable.

I personally think that Scout suffers the most out of all the builds of SW due to two major things: a) the lack of higher end gear really shows the AP problems and lower damage potential of Scout and b) certain RoR changes (specifically placing Eye Shot in Skirmisher, raising Shadow Sting's position in the tree, Crit cap, and removal of UF) while good overall for the game have completely neutered Scout and we need to come up with more creative solutions than just number tweaks in my opinion.
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dansari
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#12 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:08 am

Well why not keep the AP reduction and just add something to it? Or bump the AP reduction to 50%? I think Scout has an identity crisis. It wants to be like a mage but it doesn't have the build up potential. It's lacking a clear rotation unless you grab Powerful Draw where you can safely double dot from range and then load a few burst abilities. And then you can't take advantage of FtW because you have no points left
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#13 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:19 am

dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:01 am
Toldavf wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 am
That's not even to mention that having such big stupid damage that comes with no warning is bloody murder for pugs nobody wants to be 3 shotted with no warning it's not a fun mechanic in any game.
That was going to be my main argument. You can prep for a normal sorc/BW rotation. You cannot prep for a 3k fester drop, and based on my understanding, you could easily see 3k crits if you get a +50% crit damage tactic (not sure about 4k, but feel free to supply screenshots that show otherwise).

Edit: Toldavf provided me with a ss of a 3k fester on him. I'm wholeheartedly against 4k festers, which it appears we would invariably see with a change like this.
I doubt that it is possible to make Festering
Arrow crit for 3k+ on guarded target that will be also supported by heals (if we are talking about competitive environment of course). You also don’t have that much range to perform very sneaky nukes and any competent healer will always keep an eye on you in that case. The thing is that it won’t be a part of huge damage spike as opposed to Sorc/BW rotations. You will get hit for ~3k and the next skill will come only in 1.5+ seconds or even more, in case of Sorc/BW, both of them can easily follow 3k+ Doombolt/Fireball with several insta casts which raise the damage in a very short time to amount of almost insta kills (if you want to observe pugging/sudden encounter).
But anyway I should admit that it’s a good point and probably the crit modificator can be lowered to 25% that would increase the overall damage potential by ~15%. Will it make casual players/soloers feel better? Sure, I’m up for it if we want to take that environment into account. Will it bring the build to the competitive environment? Probably won’t (for example WL can perform 1.5k auto attack crits on unprotected targets (aka pugs) and can maintain this level of damage through the whole rotation applying very good pressure in very short time so no reason to pick a class that would need 1-3 seconds casts to reach same level of dps and the argument of range won’t help it else we’d have Engineers and BWs in premade groups. Their competitive roles are known as Rifter and Main DPS of a Warband (basically, not single target builds).
Last edited by daniilpb on Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#14 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:23 am

Changing Guerilla tactic like Danipb suggested would be great for actually making Scout viable, but as some mentioned the Festering Arrow might be too much with 50% more crit. What about, if either that 50% is tweaked or it works only with certain abilities and thus, does not affect FA?
I dont experience myself FA being overpowered with 50%. FA felt nasty with M2, yet it either killed or didnt with ridicilous crit. It had to be timed right. For having powerful spike with this change, SW needs to be glasscannon and mostly BiS. Downside, if you're being pushed by melee train, you wont be able to utilize much pressure while kiting like Skirmish. To be able to utilize max damage from Scout even with this change, you have to meet certain requirements.

About the AP. Hmm , i need to think about it some more.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#15 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:27 am

Manatikik wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:04 am
I feel like 50% Crit damage would fix a lot of Scout's burst issues but fix it in a way that isn't good for the class or the game. As already mentioned it would make fester deal too much surprise burst damage (as opposed to a Sorc/BW) and if you combine it with FM + WW then no one could stand up to that damage. It also just feels like a cop out change to mirror what helped (in part) Assault become viable.

I personally think that Scout suffers the most out of all the builds of SW due to two major things: a) the lack of higher end gear really shows the AP problems and lower damage potential of Scout and b) certain RoR changes (specifically placing Eye Shot in Skirmisher, raising Shadow Sting's position in the tree, Crit cap, and removal of UF) while good overall for the game have completely neutered Scout and we need to come up with more creative solutions than just number tweaks in my opinion.
The only creative solution that can appear is 15pt skill and you can guess how it will end. At worst, SW would have ~70ft range even maybe w/o heal debuff - at best, everyone will ignore it and play Assault/Skirmish.
Higher gear levels will increase armor, health and other defensive stats while damage output won’t raise in the same way. Scout will become even worse.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#16 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:49 am

dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:08 am
Well why not keep the AP reduction and just add something to it? Or bump the AP reduction to 50%? I think Scout has an identity crisis. It wants to be like a mage but it doesn't have the build up potential. It's lacking a clear rotation unless you grab Powerful Draw where you can safely double dot from range and then load a few burst abilities. And then you can't take advantage of FtW because you have no points left
I don’t think it would help. I don’t see any possible ways to play Scout as a full-time stance. It will always require stance dancing. But currently, there is no much sense in entering the Scout to use some skills and then go back to Skirmish because simply it takes too much time. You will make much more dps being full-time Skirmish without losing time on stance switching and long casts of the Scout. Current inexistent high damage won’t help your group to focus key target. It’s low reward/high requirement situation, better just stick to stable Skirmish damage output.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#17 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:01 am

When you think about the place and role for the Scout specc carefully, the proposal makes sense, but to increase the burst like this would be an unsatisfying experience for a lot of players. I would propose to adjust Scout into a high sustained dmg role.

The tactic could be modified to retain AP reduction by 35%, but also reduce casttimes by 33%. The no quarter tactic could reduce EE by 0.5 sec, and increase EE crit chance by 20%

With this solution you would have a higher sustained dmg output, without unreliable/controllable burst spikes. It would allow Scout SWs to apply significant pressure, while allowing opponents to counter with detaunts/los/ etc.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:47 am

darude83 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:01 am
When you think about the place and role for the Scout specc carefully, the proposal makes sense, but to increase the burst like this would be an unsatisfying experience for a lot of players. I would propose to adjust Scout into a high sustained dmg role.

The tactic could be modified to retain AP reduction by 35%, but also reduce casttimes by 33%. The no quarter tactic could reduce EE by 0.5 sec, and increase EE crit chance by 20%

With this solution you would have a higher sustained dmg output, without unreliable/controllable burst spikes. It would allow Scout SWs to apply significant pressure, while allowing opponents to counter with detaunts/los/ etc.
Every player feels satisfied when the enemy is weak and doesn't pose a threat. Just keep it in mind.
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I have the same situation with Sorcs/BWs. Playing in group I can completely ignore and /lol at them. Not because of classes I play but because they are weak. They are pugstompers. They can be easily countered by simple renown investment and basic core skills.
Sadly I don't have 40/40 Sorc yet (my BW is even lower) so I can't make proposals to make them competitive enough so people would start think about them as a potential threat in group play.
Then comes the question: would it make the build desirable in group? SW already has high sustained role/build which is mobile enough (and it's unwelcome in small scale environment where melee train dominates with the amount of cc they have). But Scout also is stationary. Would you be scared of the enemy that can't kill you quickly enough, lacks defensive tools at some kind and has more than enough counterplays. Yeah, it will be so satisfying to not worry about it at all.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#19 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:46 am

I do agree with you, that Scout SW has to pose a threat, i just disagree that a 50% crit increase is the right way to achieve that. I assume a significant percentage of the playerbase would not feel comfortable with it. A significant sustained dmg buff, with FA cast time of 2s, elimination of the AP issues, 1s AA etc would pose some threat, since FTW is still there to get kills.

Would it make the build desirable in smallscale grp? No it wouldn't, that lies in the nature of the current meta, and the total lack of utility in the Scout mastery. Would your solution fix that? The melee train engages, and then it's a short RNG game to determine who wins? Would we see the end of 2h tanks, because HTL becomes mandatory? How do you see the Scout SW with your proposed changes in a 6-man?

Imo Scout will never be great in grp, unless the dmg becomes so broken, that it would be worth it. Which also would destroy random pug zerging around a keep for example. But with one very desirable build, and one ok build SW is not in a bad place. How many classes with three viable talent trees for smallscale are there?

Scout doesn't have to be great in smallscale, it just should be better than it is now, for people who enjoy that playstyle.
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Guerrilla Training Tactic [Close Date April 22]

Post#20 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:51 am

dansari wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:01 am
Toldavf wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 am
That's not even to mention that having such big stupid damage that comes with no warning is bloody murder for pugs nobody wants to be 3 shotted with no warning it's not a fun mechanic in any game.
That was going to be my main argument. You can prep for a normal sorc/BW rotation. You cannot prep for a 3k fester drop, and based on my understanding, you could easily see 3k crits if you get a +50% crit damage tactic (not sure about 4k, but feel free to supply screenshots that show otherwise).

Edit: Toldavf provided me with a ss of a 3k fester on him. I'm wholeheartedly against 4k festers, which it appears we would invariably see with a change like this.
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I submitted a screenshot a while back of a Word of Pain breaking the RoR Damage cap... meaning it hit me for over 4k. For comparison's sake, that ability is insta-cast and also 100ft range, Fester Arrow has a 3second cast time! I bumped that thread endlessly, asking for feedback from devs as to why the damage cap was bypassed... Crickets. And now we suddenly have issues with seeing 3k fester arrows... this irks me to no end. Pretty sure I remember this screenshot. It was either directly next to a warcamp or in one of the deathmatch scenarios (Highpass, Logrin's) and was explained in that way. In no other instance would you be hit above the damage cap by WoP. -- Dan
More to the point of the discussion, you can always exclude Fester Arrow from the 50% crit damage, if in fact that's the direction to take Guerilla Training. It is, as you say, a plenty hard enough hitting ability without any further help. I would think we can do something a bit more imaginitive with the the rework other than a crit boosting tactic, something more along the lines of helping a scout compensate for having to stay in place for their abilities (something to better help survival?)

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