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[SW] Scout Stance

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.

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daniilpb
Posts: 591

[SW] Scout Stance

Post#1 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:42 pm

Identify the issue
Underperformance of the Scout stance.
Low effectiveness in most cases especially compared to other stationary range dps classes such as BW and Engineer.

Explain why it's an issue
This stance does not have anything worthwhile for small scale and warband environment.
It is subpar in terms of range burst damage compared to BW and Engineer.
Also it is underperforming in sustain damage compared to Skirmish stance.
Most of skills of this stance can be completely ignored, cut off without any significant loss in class' performance. The stance has quite obvious downsides such as stationarity, lack of utility and AP issues. Therefore, I believe these sides of the stance should be justified/fixed somehow. So, here is a bunch of simple changes which should poke the process of rework. They won’t fix huge problems but they would make a life of Scout stance a bit easier.

Propose a viable solution to the problem:
- Increase Range AA damage while in Scout stance by 50%
- On Ability Cast: 15% chance to reduce the cost of the next ability used within 10 seconds to 0 action points
- Increase disrupt rate while in Scout stance by 5-10%.*

* - I believe the stance was designed to be anti-magic so it's quite logical solution. Also it would add something completely new: switching to Scout stance to get some extra disrupt under magic focus.
Last edited by daniilpb on Tue May 15, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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dansari
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] Scout Stance

Post#2 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:28 pm

Closed June 15.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#3 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:42 pm

- Increase Range AA damage while in Scout stance by 50%
- On Ability Cast: 15% chance to reduce the cost of the next ability used within 10 seconds to 0 action points

Both are okay solutions, but not sure 15% chance on the proc is sufficient, EE spam just costs too much. And when I say spam, it's more like a burst right now, you can't keep it up for more than a few seconds at the moment. Had some pretty good results with scout against pugs, but even against pugs you don't have any pressure to speak of if your burst fails which it almost always does.
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dansari
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Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#4 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:50 pm

I can see increasing the AA damage by 50% being a nice change to give extra burst, but don't see the need for the other two buffs. Fixing AP issues on individual abilities or tactics would be my preferred way to rework the tree.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#5 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:01 pm

dansari wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:50 pm
I can see increasing the AA damage by 50% being a nice change to give extra burst, but don't see the need for the other two buffs. Fixing AP issues on individual abilities or tactics would be my preferred way to rework the tree.
Fixing the AP issue, which is No Quarter, has been suggested several times. It was buffed once, but it wasn't nearly enough. In fact, what I feel about the tactic is that there should be no AP penalty at all, but it's not gonna happen apparently.

So we are stuck with proposing other solutions, even if having to resort to that is dumb.
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#6 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:41 pm

Spoiler:
At the OP: I commend you for the ideas you consistently bring to the balance forums about a class you obviously care about. Keep it up!
Can we get some combat log data on auto attacks in scout stance/spec. I know over time you miss out on auto attacks due to casting abilities. So increase the AA damage can be a good change, just need to find what value is appropriate.

The % disrupt aspect. If we want to give scout a defense against casters, I believe a stacking resistance buff to all resistances equal to 84 - 168 (~5 - 10%) would be better than disrupt for overall balance. Disrupt as an avoidance can already be stacked up to annoying levels for casters.

The higher AP values on all physical ranged dps needs to be looked at along side the reason they are a thing (clever recovery); but that is for a different thread.

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Xergon
Posts: 571

Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#7 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:09 pm

daniilpb wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:42 pm
- Increase Range AA damage while in Scout stance by 50%
- On Ability Cast: 15% chance to reduce the cost of the next ability used within 10 seconds to 0 action points
- Increase disrupt rate while in Scout stance by 5-10%.*
I dont feel like AP is an issue on SW, very rarely WB fights last long enough that i even have to use AP pots... Unless ur talking about PUG fights or Keep sieges. Nevertheless instead AP cost reduce i would prefer something like Cast time reduce or Increase Range
Spoiler:
( that would be small counter to 300 ft range of SH range pets ).
No need to exaggerate or bring up something irrelevant to discussion - Dan
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Ramasee
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Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#8 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:04 am

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This screenshot is from Lefze doing scout rotations on target dummy in altdorf with 1054 ballistic skill and a subjugator weapon. Best possible scenario since he was not moving.

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This one is the same thing except he emulated combat by moving which lowered his (max)dps by about 10%.

Couple things about these screenshots, the dummies do not have any mitigation, and you always crit them. His auto attacks did 604 without vengeance. So they would do 302 before mitigation on a non critical hit.

So with this in mind, a 50% increase to auto attack damage while in scout should not break the balance bank.

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live4treasure
Posts: 267

Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#9 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:55 pm

I think the issue with scout stance is mainly about:

A) Barely sustainable damage due to heavy AP costs

B) Very difficult to pull off the scout stance dream (aka festerbomb etc.)

I can see the AP thing address the first problem but not the second. Perhaps instead of the auto-attack damage thing we could increase the proc chance to 20-30% and also add a 50% cast time reduction for the next skill? It would give Scout a bit of a proc playstyle, but it would give them a real opportunity to pull off their burst combo.

Or alternatively, perhaps the range bonus that scout stance brings could be increased to be near the level of an engineer? Not at, but at least a little closer, so that scout would have more range to work with for his festerbombs and etc.

I don't really see how the suggested ability will help in any noteworthy fashion, but perhaps I don't understand something.
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lefze
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Posts: 863

Re: [SW] Scout Stance [Close Date June 15]

Post#10 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:54 pm

live4treasure wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:55 pm
I think the issue with scout stance is mainly about:

A) Barely sustainable damage due to heavy AP costs

B) Very difficult to pull off the scout stance dream (aka festerbomb etc.)

I can see the AP thing address the first problem but not the second. Perhaps instead of the auto-attack damage thing we could increase the proc chance to 20-30% and also add a 50% cast time reduction for the next skill? It would give Scout a bit of a proc playstyle, but it would give them a real opportunity to pull off their burst combo.

Or alternatively, perhaps the range bonus that scout stance brings could be increased to be near the level of an engineer? Not at, but at least a little closer, so that scout would have more range to work with for his festerbombs and etc.

I don't really see how the suggested ability will help in any noteworthy fashion, but perhaps I don't understand something.
50% reduction on fester is too strong, putting it on a 2 second cast is the most I would see as acceptable. If AAs are allowed to do more damage and AP issues are fixed, fester can remain as it is as the spec no longer has to crutch on the skill to function.
Last edited by lefze on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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