[Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

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Osred
Posts: 390

[Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#1 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:45 pm

Problem :

A generally useless tactic that nobody ever picks.

Long Reach

- 5 feet range on 2 skills in the grand scheme of the IB Arsenal are subpar to downright waste of a GCD.
- Waste of a tactic Slot as a result.
- Arguably the worst tactic IB has available

Shield Sweep

- Very small Aoe Range, the 5 ft from Long Reach does not improve it at all
- High rate of parry, giving very little to no grudge return at all. 25 grudge cost for at most but extremely rare 30 grudge return. Low damage doesn't warrent its use
- Cap of 3 Targets limits return even further
- Needlessly high 10 sec cooldown on a sub par skill
- For a skill that has a weapon requirement aswell as grudge cost offers little in return for GCD investment when IB by default has the highest amount of skills needed in his/her rotation

Solution

Solution comprises of fixes and improvements to both these problems but are completely open to discussion and other ideas.

Long Reach

- Reduces cool down on Shield Sweep by 5 seconds
- Increase Target cap on Shield Sweep to 9
- Increase range by 10 ft
- optional negative - Reduce grudge return from 10 per hit to 7


Changes to Shield Sweep

- Reduce cool down to 5 seconds

These could solve the following issues

- Limited Aoe Range
- Limited Target cap
- Little Return from high block/parry defenders
- Grudge and GCD investment
- Its high cooldown

This could solve Long Reaches tactic slot investment issue. IBs already have a selection of great tactics they use in mass and smallscale fights they've become Mandatory for success. What improvements could be made to a tactic that makes people want to use it. I believe these changes will open up other OPTIONS for players, not make it a mainstay meta build requirement.

Opening up a tactic and skill for a change like this can provide another option for mass scale fighting, where IBs are not highly desired over their peers the Knight (Auras) and SM (WW, NB), this will ease it somewhat.

These changes will also allow the skill to become the mirror to Black Guards Monstrous Rending, however the trade off is that it is limited to Shield wielders (in turn limiting its damage, with it being in the defensive tree) and requires a tactic to become effective.
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Penril
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#2 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:13 pm

Moving to discussions.

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Tesq
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#3 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:40 pm

mm 10 grudege x 9 target is potentially 90 grudege thats a bit too much imo, especially if shield sweep CD go to 5 sec, the rng is a bit too extreme not even dok/wp rec give you 90% of a meccanic in 1 GCD. (takes 2).

besides don't IB community hate spend the tactic for grude gaining? it's one of their most told point that raising anger should be removed and meccanic mirrored with bg.
Cuz that tactic is basically the base for play IB (and im even surprised is not give at rank 11 instead of the KD reduction tactic which have no use in t1).

if that is the case there is alredy a grudge gain tactic fully working and IB comunity dont seems very happy about it. Another one could maybe replace raising anger or either being ignored i dont see how any could IB get 2x tactic to make their meccanic worth.
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-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Osred
Posts: 390

Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#4 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:45 pm

Tesq wrote:mm 10 grudege x 9 target is potentially 90 grudege thats a bit too much imo, especially if shield sweep CD go to 5 sec, the rng is a bit too extreme not even dok/wp rec give you 90% of a meccanic in 1 GCD. (takes 2).

besides don't IB community hate spend the tactic for grude gaining? it's one of their most told point that raising anger should be removed and meccanic mirrored with bg.
Cuz that tactic is basically the base for play IB (and im even surprised is not give at rank 11 instead of the KD reduction tactic which have no use in t1).

if that is the case there is alredy a grudge gain tactic fully working and IB comunity dont seems very happy about it. Another one could maybe replace raising anger or either being ignored i dont see how any could IB get 2x tactic to make their meccanic worth.
Thats why as a proposal (for the proposal) we reduce the grudge gain from 10 to something smaller when the tactic is used, similar to how several target increase tactics on other classes reduces their damage (but still a net bonus on damage from increased target cap), which would decrease its potency but still grant to benefit of increased targets hit. I also mentioned that to get all targets to successfully hit is incredibly rare. IBs do not possess 100% strikethrough, you are rarely, if ever guaranteed to hit all 9 targets.

I believe the proposal to mirror the attack/defence Hate mechanic of BG for IB was shouted down with claims it would be too OP last time it was proposed, according to Volgograd.
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Tesq
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#5 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:53 pm

yes, missread sy fault of my eyes. tough would not be better fix shield sweep to do this his own and rework long reach for something else as said raising anger is here and i dont think IB will double tactic for grudge.

imo the whole proposal should get if implemented all work around change shield sweep because require a tactic for it feel extremly heavy.
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Osred
Posts: 390

Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#6 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:39 pm

I'm open to that idea, but I think my proposed changes would be a bit strong to not require a tactic.
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Penril
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#7 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:17 pm

I mentioned i was gonna change the BDF rules in a different thread. While I haven't written them all yet, I can tell you in advance how it is gonna work (and will work from now in this thread).

Basically, leads decide what gets changed and what doesn't. They don't have the time to read all the Balance Discussion forum though, so I move any thread that I consider worthy of being discussed. At that point, you have to convince ME that a change needs to happen. If you succeed, I present the leads my conclusions and push for a change.

The reason for this change is that, as I explained, leads expect my feedback after any discussion. And i am done with moderating babies fighting each other; from now on, your discussions are with me. Those who know me know I am not intransigent; those who don't know me, well, will probably whine. Not that I care.

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Osred
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#8 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Cool. So what are your thoughts so far Penril? I'm happy to address any points and discuss alternative options if need be.
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Penril
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#9 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:16 pm

I think Long reach turning Shield Sweep into a Monstrous Rending is fine, but we would definitely need to tune the Grudge cost and gain. Maybe something like this.

- Increases targets hits to 9
- Grudge gained by target hit = 5 (so 45 max, it was 30 before)
- Increase Grudge cost to 30 (25 before)

Something like that.

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Osred
Posts: 390

Re: [Ironbreaker] Long Reach + Shield Sweep

Post#10 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:21 pm

Yeah that sounds like in the right direction

Regarding cooldowns, you'd be up for keeping the cooldown of Shield Sweep at 10s? No tactic augmentation?

I think if we're not up for attaching a cooldown reduction in long reach we could keep the proposal to reduce cooldown in shield sweep from 10 to 5 as a base, similar to the cooldown of WP/DoK aoe cleave resource builder, the name escapes me. Seeing as how MR has zero cooldown, and builds hate off hit due to the mechanic.
Ilthain - Archmage
Volketh - Blackguard
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