[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

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Tankbeardz
Posts: 552

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#71 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:01 pm

Penril wrote:I think someone should run the test and bring evidence. Until then we are just repeating random numbers.
I'd be happy to help anytime if the cost of respeccing wasn't so prohibitive for me. I don't farm too often and I respec a LOT.

I am also neutral on this subject. I don't really care either way.

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Penril
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#72 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm

I can test but in about 6-7 hours.

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#73 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:35 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:Someone log on a 40 Sm and give us the tooltip numbers for ED. Same with a 40 chosen and Relentless. Because going off career builder (which I do not necessarily trust as it uses different base levels for different careers to calculate damage), ED hits 5 times for 190 each, which is 950 damage over 3 seconds. Relentless hits six times for 114, which is 684 damage over 3 seconds. So ED deals about 38% more damage than Relentless (assuming Relentless as the base integer, and ED damage as the product). So mirroring the base damage would be a buff of 38% to Relentless' damage, in addition to the damage buff granted by making it against resists as opposed to armor.

These are rough, semi-unreliable numbers (I also suck at math) and I would rather have people verify the real, in-game numbers but there ya go. Is that an acceptable buff for a skill on an 8 second cooldown (3 second channel, 8 second CD, so 5 seconds in between channels; also AA and another ability will hit immediately aftrt channel ends, backloading the potential burst) in an already overperforming class?
The biggest issue with testing is gear. Your gear, weapon damage, STR, weaponskill etc all make a big difference on the damage numbers. I had a few minutes and was going to do it this morning but my Chosen is WAY more geared than any other character I have, so its hard to make an "apples to apples" comparison.

So here is what I think would be tested - get 2 characters with "equal stats" (i.e. STR/WS etc) and attach the SAME armor %/resist % defensive target.

You will have to do double SM debuff as well.

My GUESS is the SM's ED will probably deal double the damage the chosens relentless will.

For Knight its even tricker... Proc Runefang and do the same thing.

Going from Phys -> Non Phys would be harder to know the net impact. With a Chosen you can probably GUESSTIMATE the impact by using Ravage vs Cleave and note the difference in damage there (not at home, cant check but I think they are CLOSE to same tooltip if equal mastery?)

SO that will tell you Phys -> Spirit on a Chosen.

Those are my thoughts on testing. I wont be home for several hours either. This will also take more than 1 person who has classes on both factions who can also remove all the variables on a defensive target as well to see the REAL impact.
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Stmichael1989
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#74 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:24 pm

As it stands, Myrmadia's fury is the same AP and GCD investment of 2 precision strikes (75AP 3 second channel vs 80 AP 2 GCD), only precision strike ignores 25% armor and does not interrupt auto-attacks. You get more damage for the same AP out of spamming your basic direct damage ability, so why spec for the channeled damage?

I'm not a fan of simple damage tweaks on the ability. It adds nothing to the game except another button for damage specced knights to push every 8 seconds. If it doesn't add to the class in a meaningful way, why bother?

I've got 2 recommendations for the ability:

1) The utility method. Add some other functionality to the ability to give knights a reason to use it beyond just damage. They already have a good slow baseline, and can spec into a knockdown, so I'd advise against those. The damage is nothing special, so making it a lifetap would be pretty underwhelming as well.

One that I think would be meaningful is a channeled spell interrupt. Make each hit from the ability interrupt spell casting, and then it's useful for shutting down casters, who have a natural advantage against 2h tanks.

2) The damage method. Instead of just buffing the damage, at least make it interesting and useful. Knights at least have AP issues when trying to deal damage, so a reliable damage ability that is very AP efficient would be a good step forward. Change the ability so that when the channeling ends, it places a DoT on the target that deals the same amount of damage it dealt over 5 seconds. So if you channel for 3 seconds and do 750 damage, it deals 750 damage over 5 seconds. If you channel for 2 seconds and only do 500, it deals 500 over 5 seconds. The total output is doubled, but it's more like steady pressure damage than a sudden burst.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#75 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:57 pm

Stmichael1989 wrote: I'm not a fan of simple damage tweaks on the ability. It adds nothing to the game except another button for damage specced knights to push every 8 seconds. If it doesn't add to the class in a meaningful way, why bother?
Fair Enough. I can respect and see your opinion.

The way I see it is that even a "damage specced Knight (Or Chosen)" has a myriad of other abilities that are frankly more important than "deeps bro". I mean frankly, I dont even feel like I use Ravage that much compared to everything else... Between Slow, Taunt, Challenge, checking guard positioning/rotating guard, repel, suppression(chosen), Sever Blessing, etc. etc. etc.

I think a 3 second channel makes it an interesting thing to choose. Frankly, I would be fine to increase the CD as well to something like 10 seconds or 12... But even "just damage" as a channel, adds some fun as a "finisher".

Speaking from a BG player as well, the damage channel on that class is immensely rewarding (partly because it also builds hate) but also because its a decent damager and I feel like I have a good chance at getting a DB when it hits every .5 seconds for decent damage - which does make it fun in SCs. Just 2 cents. So even if the classes are low to medium overall damage, having an "UMPH" ability to help burst someone down... It IS fun.

Stmichael1989 wrote: I've got 2 recommendations for the ability:

1) The utility method. Add some other functionality to the ability to give knights a reason to use it beyond just damage...
...One that I think would be meaningful is a channeled spell interrupt. Make each hit from the ability interrupt spell casting...
My only fear is that this would be TOO good against casters. You get on a healer, snare, Sever Blessing, and then start the Channel and they are SCREWED... Time this with a good KD afterwards, then your channel is almost up again. Game Over. I dont dislike the idea AT ALL, I applaud you for thinking outside the box actually, but my FEAR is that this would be too good as a form of "CC" that also doesnt respect CC immunity timers - which would be combined to completely shut someone down... Maybe I am wrong.

Stmichael1989 wrote: 2) The damage method. Instead of just buffing the damage, at least make it interesting and useful.... Change the ability so that when the channeling ends, it places a DoT on the target


Now this isnt a horrible idea at all. Maybe not so much a "DOT" but you could make the damage require a little more "timing" aspect to it... I dont know the ability of the DEVs to do this, but if it were possible to make the LAST hit in the channel deal extra damage... So for (Chosen) since you hit 6x you could do something where the first 5 hits deal X damage and the 6th hit deals like 2x or 3x damage.

- What this does is it is now "counterable" and if you cannot get that FINAL hit off, it wasnt worth the GCD time to do it. It would make you think twice about using the ability and when to use it...


I know we are trying to be "more creative" and what not, but part of me wonders if we are trying to hard too. The biggest issues with these classes are the auto-auras and I truly believe once they come up with a good solution that requires more "management" then you will likely view those GCDs as more precious as they will likely involve keeping up the auras - which then makes you REALLY think twice about using a 3 second channel for "just damage".
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TenTonHammer
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#76 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:01 am

th3gatekeeper wrote: My only fear is that this would be TOO good against casters. You get on a healer, snare, Sever Blessing, and then start the Channel and they are SCREWED... Time this with a good KD afterwards, then your channel is almost up again. Game Over. I dont dislike the idea AT ALL, I applaud you for thinking outside the box actually, but my FEAR is that this would be too good as a form of "CC" that also doesnt respect CC immunity timers - which would be combined to completely shut someone down... Maybe I am wrong.

but its extremely easy to interrupt channels

you have interrupt attacks, taunts, cc abilities....
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ashton007
Posts: 149

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#77 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:49 am

I for one think that changing relentless into spirit damage is a step in the right direction. It has absolutely no use at the moment considering u get more out of spamming ravage as others have already stated. Moving it up to t3 in the tree is definitely grounds to buff it so I think that is a decent concept as well... If it did even 20% or 30% more damage than just spamming ravage it would totally be worth the point that it costs to get the ability, where as it stands now isn't worth the point and even if it were free it would still be obsolete. I just think it should have an actual use at least, since it costs a precious mastery point. It would also spice up the chosen rotation a bit as their rotation isn't very entertaining. As it stands it isn't worth the global cd the mastery point or even the t2 slot in the path of the dread.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#78 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:44 am

Might just be me, but all those image links are broken. Thank you for the tests though, totally surprised MF does more damage than Enraged Beating.
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Penril
Posts: 4443

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#79 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:45 am

So I ran a few tests.
Spoiler:
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The target was a level 40 champ. To avoid gear-balance isues, I removed everything from all tanks except for the 2H weapon, which was the same for all (Epic quest 2H weapon). I only ran certain tactics/buffs which made sense, though these results might vary if running the test with a WL/Mara armor debuff, or a SM double spirit debuff for example. You can check what buffs/tactics I used in the chart I made.

I also ran a test for Unbalancing Attack, comparing it as Physical Damage vs. Elemental Damage (Mighty Soul) with and without Resist aura debuff. The target was a normal lvl38 mob.
Spoiler:
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These are the results:

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SM and BO came on top (no surprise there). What did surprise me was that MF did better than Enraged Beating. This must be due to Runefang. Still, it only did around 4% more damage overall, and EB still costs less (6 points compared to 10) while also building hate for the BG on crits. Also, if the BG runs anti-detaunt tactic, and the target detaunts the tank, then BG would be doing more damage than all the other tanks (including SM and BO).

IB has arguably the worst channel of them all, considering that it only beats Chosen (damage wise) while costing 14 points. This while having Str/WS buffs AND +crit from AF/Sweet Revenge/GBF. The buff from GBF was at least 15%; I had 100 Grudges, used AF/WnL which dropped me to 70, hit once with Inspiring attack (with RA and DR i was pretty much at 100 again: that's why I ran those tactics btw, to gain Grudges pretty quickly) and then used GBF. Chosen did worse than this, but his channel costs 10 points (and he only used Str aura).

As for making MF deal Elemental damage: I tested Unbalancing Attack and, as an Elemental attack, it did 6% more damage than it as a Physical Attack (15.5% as crits). So... meh?. However, once I added the Resist aura debuff, the damage increased by 19% (and 34% as crits). This test is inconclusive though since, again, I would need to test UA on a target that was armor debuffed by a White Lion. But I think a 1.2k+ armor debuff (stacked with a tank M1 armor debuff) could certainly increase the damage of a physical skill by 20% or more.

TL:DR: Buff Relentless (and Grudge-born Fury, please!!!!). They need some desperate love. Myrmidia's Soul too, but maybe a bit less, because RF.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#80 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:59 am

Which is hitting more than it should? T'ree hit combo? All others seem to match tooltip.
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