[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.

Moderators: Balance Forum Mod, Developer, Management, Game Master, Community Manager, Moderator, Web Developer

User avatar
th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#51 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:35 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
Penril wrote:If you say so, I trust your judgement on KotBS.

Let me try this again:

- Torque is worried a buff for Relentless/Myrmidia's Fury will be used by SnB users. He doesn't want to buff SnB damage.
- Someone mentioned we needn't worry because SnB KotBS had Vigilance = probably not enough points to grab MF.
- I pointed out that this was not true because Vigilance is not a good spec for SnB users. I linked a (imho) better spec for SnB.
- However I pointed out that, since tri-spec was much better, a SnB KotBs wouldn't grab MF anyway.
- Beardz pointed out Vigilance can be great in SnB specs as well. I trust him, but this would also mean a SnB KotBS with Vigilance would probably have not many points for MF (he would miss Focused Mending for example).

tl;dr: I wouldn't worry too much about SnB KotBS grabbing MF.
Right now that may be the case, buffed is a different matter, long story short as I seem to be being way too subtle, not without a GW lock caveat is it happening.
I think we are all behind you Torq. The ONLY reason I (and I think penril) even pointed this out - is to try and save you time/worrying about the grayscale issue.

So it seems we are all in agreement
- GW lock the two abilities
- either keep at tier 2 + change to Spirit/Ele damage OR
- move to tier 3, change to spirit/Ele and beef up the base damage a bit.

Is anyone AGAINST this?
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

Ads
Penril
Posts: 4443

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#52 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:52 am

Would still need to define what is the buff in order to agree/disagre.

User avatar
th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#53 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:21 pm

Penril wrote:Would still need to define what is the buff in order to agree/disagre.
- Make Chosen Relentless Spirit Damage, increase BASE damage of the ability so that it matches SMs. (Note: SM only hits 5x, not 6, so will need to adjust base damage by 5/6 of SM base)

- Make Knights Myrm Fury Elemental Damage, increase BASE damage of the ability so the TOTAL matches SMs.

- Make both abilities GW only.

- Consider moving both abilities up the tree to tier 3.


NOTE: SM benefits from double spirit debuff (more damage), as well as Great Weapon Mastery (10% more damage), as well as Balanced Accuracy (5% more crit). Which gives SM still considerable more damage with their channel over these new an improved Chosen/Knight abilities. So dont fret that "now Chosen/KOBS will deal same damage as SM" as that will not be the case. SM/BO still have higher damage output with their channels due to the rest of their kits.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

User avatar
Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#54 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:04 pm

I 100% disagree with bringing it up to SM level destro has a pile of spirit debuffs so you have to be careful there. The level of dps should fit the class, we should increase the damage so that its of a total level slightly greater then what you could achieve with say a ravage spam in the same time frame . That way it's worth speccing without pushing the chosen to high in the dps stakes.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

Image

Ashoris
Posts: 135

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#55 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:14 pm

th3gatekeeper wrote:
Penril wrote:Would still need to define what is the buff in order to agree/disagre.
- Make Chosen Relentless Spirit Damage, increase BASE damage of the ability so that it matches SMs. (Note: SM only hits 5x, not 6, so will need to adjust base damage by 5/6 of SM base)

- Make Knights Myrm Fury Elemental Damage, increase BASE damage of the ability so the TOTAL matches SMs.

- Make both abilities GW only.

- Consider moving both abilities up the tree to tier 3.


NOTE: SM benefits from double spirit debuff (more damage), as well as Great Weapon Mastery (10% more damage), as well as Balanced Accuracy (5% more crit). Which gives SM still considerable more damage with their channel over these new an improved Chosen/Knight abilities. So dont fret that "now Chosen/KOBS will deal same damage as SM" as that will not be the case. SM/BO still have higher damage output with their channels due to the rest of their kits.

first at all check if the dmg we use to compare this skill isn't overpeforming.

second i dont think it is a good idea to buff this skills to the same level as the skills of the other tanks (SM/BO), keep in mind that as a chosen/KotBS you bring much more to the group than the other classes.

third if we still think it needs a buff think about a small effect first ? like a simple "snare" effect for example ? or an cc immunity effect for the tank to make sure he can use it (as long as the focus is goin on) ?

I just dont like the idea to put even more damage on tanks in general, my personal opinion is we have too much dmg anyway on tanks and we need to focus more on the "supporting" function. - This is irrelevant. They have a DPS tree and therefore should be able to do DPS, just like Shadow Warriors had a melee tree and therefore got buffed in order to be able to mDPS. Just like Dok/WP are melee healers and in the past we tried to buff their melee heals (and will try again soon). Just like BOs have 2 other trees besides Brawler that got recently buffed (Whispering Winds and group AA haste). I can go on....
Warhammer Return of Reckoning
Verey / Ashoris / Devoras

WaR -dead-
Erengrad - Order - Frostbringer - Devoras

User avatar
GodlessCrom
Suspended
Posts: 1297

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#56 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:19 pm

Yeah, I dont see the justification for giving them the same damage as Ether Dance other than "I want it." I think buffing them to do magical damage is enough.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

User avatar
th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#57 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:27 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:Yeah, I dont see the justification for giving them the same damage as Ether Dance other than "I want it." I think buffing them to do magical damage is enough.
Did you not see my "NOTE". While the BASE damage is the same, the damage is NOT.

SMs Ether Dance - you can DOUBLE spirit debuff the opponent which is what makes this hit so hard. You can most likely debuff them to almost zero resist %. Also, get a talent "Great Weapon Mastery" which gives 10% damage and 5% Parry.

Those two things combined, will net the SM in the BALLPARK of likely 25%+ more damage on his Ether Dance. So the reality is, even when you match up the base damage of the ability, its still not even close to the net result being the same.

And I agree. Chosen/Knights bring more to the group - and I am fine with the SM/BO being the more "DPS" oriented tanks. Which is why it seems fine to me, to give Chosen/Knights the same base damage channel, without the added "DPS" kit mechanics that the SM and BO have (like crit tactic on BO, and the SM double debuff, and both get great weapon mastery).

Make sense?
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

User avatar
Bozzax
Posts: 2017

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#58 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:34 pm

1. I don’t think channels should have GW prereq (kotbs / cho already have less abilities then most)
2. I don’t think damage should be changed from phys (would just be a dmg buff)
3. I do think damage should be increased slightly (E: maybe)

My .2$

These classes are to good for anything more
Last edited by Bozzax on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Ads
User avatar
GodlessCrom
Suspended
Posts: 1297

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#59 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:39 pm

Spoiler:
Make sense?
No. Why mirror the damage to SM in the first place? You are taking it for a given that these abilities need to have their damage buffed twice, once by making them magical and another by updating the tooltip damage. I dont see an actual argument for why they need to be buffed twice other than you expressing incredulity that anyone might disagree with you.

I understand Swordmaster does more damage regardless (not due to GWM however: it is due to crits, Blurring Shock, and Potent Enchantment procs) but that isnt the issue. The issue is buffing overperforming tanks. Yes, this ability underperforms but consider the other two tanks in the game: Black Guard and Ironbreaker. Both are already third fiddle due to lackluster buffs and less damage compared to the dps tanks (though Black Guard honestly isnt far behind BO at all). The only reason to ever take one of those tanks is as a dps assist. But if Knight/Chosen damage is buffed too much, you just end up skipping the BG/IB and taking an SM/BO or perhaps even a second knight (probably not a second chosen though).

This change affects more than just those knights who think SM is too annoying and IB is too hard. Buff their damage too much and you stealth nerf already marginalized classes.

3. No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror.

When we are balancing classes, we are doing so in isolation. That means when we are considering, for example, Witch Elf and how to address any issues the class may have, we are NOT interested in hearing about how Witch Hunter will need X buffed or Y nerfed in order to maintain mirror parity. We will address Witch Elf first, and then, when Witch Hunter comes into the frame for adjustment, address that class.

The exceptions to this rule are:

- If Witch Hunter has already been addressed.
- If the problem is exactly the same for both mirrors.

This rule applies on the realm scale as well as the class scale, and it applies bilaterally.
This means that, for example, if Destruction class X is in the frame for buffs or nerfs, we are not interested in hearing about how Order class Y must immediately be buffed or nerfed to compensate or how Destruction class Z has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first. Unlike with classes, there are no exceptions to this rule when it applies to realms.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Penril
Posts: 4443

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#60 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:53 pm

In case the above rule wasn't clear: If Destruction class X (Chosen) is in the frame for buffs, we are not interested in hearing how Destruction class Z (Blackguard) has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first.

This applies, of course, to KotBS and IB.

The issue is quite simple: Are Relentless/Myrmidia's Fury good skills and worth 10 points? Answer: No.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests