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[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#11 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:28 pm

Is it? For Chosen it might be a decent buff, as they generally have pretty low WS, but Knights generally have pretty high WS due to gear and Runefang (240 WS for having guard up, lol) and combined with armor debuff from WL/IB (good melee group will never not have an armor debuff) I wonder if anyone but armor tali stacking tanks will end up having higher mitigation from armor than they do from resists against a Knight, even taking into account the resist debuff from aura.
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TenTonHammer
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#12 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:30 pm

instead of spiritual for KOTBS, if we go in that direction, may i suggest elemental instead?

I thought that was kinda obvious. The proposal for MF would be elemental - Penril.
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Eathisword
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#13 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:32 pm

Is this ability underperforming ?

I know we aren't supose to compare careers, but, in this instance, since all tanks have a similar channel ability, I believe it has some merit. If we look at tooltip value, requirement for channel and mastery points invested for each tank, we get :

DESTRUCTION
Chosen, Relentless, 9 mastery, deals 6x114 damage for 684 total
BO, Tree hit combo, 13 mastery, deals 4x213 damage for 852 total
BG, Enraged beating, 9 mastery, deals 5x283 for 1415

ORDER
SM, Ether Dance, 13 mastery, 190x5 for 950 total, require GW
Knight, Myrmidia's fury, 9 mastery, 558 damage
IB, Grudge born fury, 13 mastery, 520 damage, requires GW

Hence, compared to all other tanks, it doesn't underperform. Considering both abilities are 9 points mastery (not 13 like SM, IB or BO) and that they have no GW or hate or plan/stance requirement (like IB/bg, sm/BO), I see no reason to buff them. They aren't the worse + they have no requirements related to their mechanic while all other tanks have one to access their channel.

Another question we can ask, since the premisse seems to be that damage is too low, would be : Does Chosen or Knight have any ability that hit harder than those ones ? If the answer is no, then these abilities are fullfilling their purpose (I dont have the answer, just saying)
Last edited by Eathisword on Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#14 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:38 pm

Grudge born fury has a +crit chance modifier though, which may be why it costs 13 points. A better comparison would be with Enraged Beating (used to cost 10 points; it costs 6 now that it replaced Blade of Ruin) which does way more damage, costs way less and also has an additional effect (increases hate on crits).

So yeah, let's not talk about other tanks. Look at these skills by themselves, and agree/disagree with the OP (giving your reasons).

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Eathisword
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#15 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:42 pm

Penril wrote:Grudge born fury has a +crit chance modifier though, which may be why it costs 13 points. A better comparison would be with Enraged Beating (used to cost 9 points; it costs 6 now that it replaced Blade of Ruin) which does way more damage, costs way less and also has an additional effect (increases hate).
Removed post : ok... I won't talk about other tanks :p
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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#16 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:53 pm

Spoiler:
Enraged Beating is six mastery points, not 9. Also, the BG career builder uses lvl 40 bases for its damage numbers while other tanks use lvl 25 IIRC, meaning pulling the numbers off Career Builder or Waronlinebuilder (they both have this issue) is misleading. Though to be fair, it hits harder than all tank channels other than ED/THC. Also, it hits 6/7 times I am pretty sure, not 5.
EDITED: Can confirm, Enraged Beating hits 7 times

Also, THC and Ether Dance have insanely good synergy with Skull Thumper/Blurring Shock and the +20% crit while in final stance tactics, meaning each hit has a pretty high chance to do additional damage on crit. Ether Dance also benefits from double stacking spirit debuff making spirit mitigation (which no one on destro stacks, or at least I never heard of it) reducing resists to very low.
Knight has a lot of WS due to Runefang and gear, but Chosen mostly do spirit damage and have low WS, which means much lower damage on physical ability than on spirit damage attacks like Ravage or Rending Blade.

For Relentless/Myrmidias Fury to be worthwhile, they would have to hit harder than the following:

1 auto attack (assuming you auto attack at start of combat)
Ravage/precision strike
1.15 gcd
Ravage/precision strike
2.30 gcd (1.15 has passed again)
Ravage/precision strike.
(timeframe ends as further gcd would bring us out of 3 second timeframe for channel).

This is assuming best case scenario in terms of gcd usage of course. Can be tricky to pull off with NA ping but our Euro overlords can surely do it ;)

EDIT: spoilered response to volgo
Last edited by GodlessCrom on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#17 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:54 pm

FINE. Compare with other tanks.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand what you are saying.

- SM: Can double spirit debuff, making Ether Dance hit like a truck, procs stat steal when channeling.
- BO: Has +crit tactic, has an armor debuff, procs stat steal when channeling.
- BG: Has anti detaunt, armor debuff, can proc wounds debuff when channeling (if using tactic).
- IB: Grudge born fury sucks
- Chosen: I guess channel helped when trying to proc CS on a single target. CS is now 10% though, so I don't see a reason why not to buff Relentless. Specially since the signature damage skill for Chosen was Ravage, and it got nerfed to Oblivion on live.
- KotBS: I have no clue what was Myrmidia's Fury role. It sucks.

This will be my last post as a player :)

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#18 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:56 pm

Penril wrote:FINE. Compare with other tanks.
Sorry Penril, saw your edit after my post. :oops:
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#19 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:03 pm

I echo Penril and Volgograd's thoughts, and believe that we must compare it against other tanks if we are to deduce whether or not it is overperforming:

* ED and THC are the staple abilities of SM and BO. They both hit tremendously hard, due to spirit res debuff (as Penril said) and the crit dmg modifier for BO. They both also benefit from the +crit% tactics.
* EB is very good due to its hate generation component, chance to (as Penril said) wounds debuff and more, ease of access, and the X of hits it does in a short period of time.
* Chosen and KOTBS variants are not very good, due to relatively meh dps both of these tanks provide. While I agree that they are the best tanks overall for general group play, if you are investing that high into the designated 'damage' tree, you should be able to purchase a strong channel - regardless of what tank you are picking: you are missing out on AA damage (wouldn't be so much of an issue if Relentless and MF were magical damage), and missing out on other valuable goodies from other trees.
* The same is true of GBF, which is absolutely never taken due to how bad it is, and the fact that IB is incredibly reliant on high RR to get a proper spec (at least imo): you can't afford to get GBF in its current state, nor is it worth it.

tldr; measure the abilities themselves against the role the spec is supposed to be, i.e. damage/dps. They could both do with some love, but one must bear in mind that they are 9-pt abilities (SM/BO/IB are all 13), so if their power is going to be increased considerably then so, too, should their position in respective specline (and yes, BG'S EB is cheap to get, too, but one must take into account how relatively underperforming the BG could be seen to be when compared to the God tanks, and that this was a recent change made to test out the new KD)
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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#20 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:37 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:I echo Penril and Volgograd's thoughts, and believe that we must compare it against other tanks if we are to deduce whether or not it is overperforming:
So I guess my thought (I posted in more wall-o-text format) is why not just MATCH these two abilities to the SM/BO knowing that the abilities do not get supported the same.

Make Chosen's Spirit Damage and MATCH the SM's tool tip damage.
Knights - make on par with BOs version for tooltip damage.

Both are still "not as good" because Chosen cant double debuff and Knights dont get crit tactic like BOs.

So its atleast bringing it "up to par" in terms of tooltip, and itll still be weaker than those other classes.

Again, I would propose making these abilities tier 3, and bumping the current ones down to tier 2. Seems like this is overall the best avenue to deploy.

Eventually we need to discuss the EZmode auras on these tanks - which will bring them back down to earth.
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