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[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#31 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:14 pm

The fact that you haven't outright declined this proposal is a huge step imho.

Now, there are a few things you could do:

a) Lock the channels to 2H and Ignore the grayscale thing. I don't know any SnB KotBS/Chosen who specs these skills anyway; they all go for Knockdowns/Staggers/Slice through/Crippling Strikes/AP aura maybe; not one of them will even notice the change.

b) Use tactics (like you did with Hastened dismissal) to increase the effectiveness of those skills when using a 2H and reducing it when in SnB. For example:
- Increase the channels damage to an appropiate level.
- Increase their CDs to 20+ seconds.
- Efficient Swings and Oppresing Blows tactics: reduce the channels CD to 8s.

c) Move the skills up to 14 points and buff accordingly. KotBS would gain a AoE wounds debuff at 10 points, but it already requires a 2H anyway. Chosen would gain Rending Blade... also requires a 2H.

And i'm sure I missed a few other options.

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Lektroluv
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Posts: 243

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#32 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:37 pm

Spoiler:
Tankbeardz wrote:
Lektroluv wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote: * EB is very good due to its hate generation component, chance to (as Penril said) wounds debuff and more, ease of access, and the X of hits it does in a short period of time.

Why keep talking about wounds debuffs as something native in blackguard class? no it is not the wounds debuff tactic require spend much more points in malice path and require lose a tactic slot, and a critical hit.

Why make the kotbs a elemental damaging attack, withouth any requeriment in tactic slot, either spend as much points as hight the wounds debuff tactic is.

Kotbs has too many elemental damage attacks, the dot can stack 3 times isn't it? the damage shield is up there all the time, doesn't even need a cooldown, all out assault is up there withouth need a cooldown, shield of the sun is broken in this server procing from all attacks, not like it did on live server procing one time each 2 seconds... they even have an automatic elemental debuff aura, uncleanseable and withouth require any cooldown because auras are independent of global cooldown timer.

Kotbs it is already doing too much elemental damage for add, even more, withouth any requeriment.

And after all this, you have to add they have runefang tactic, which adds a bunch of strengh in the class.

The class itself it is overperforming, they don't need add another overperforming tool.
Clearly you have never played the class. Is it not a requirement to have a 40/40 to post here? The dot you are speaking of is useless. The elemental damage tactic is garbage...

I have been playing with the skill for giggles the last couple of nights and you lose a lot for very little gain. I wsa running about 730 STR and 350ish base weaponskill...with Runefang up and critting the ability was hitting for around 235ish. It is underperforming since you lose survivability to get it. I would agree with switching it to some kind of elemental damage or an autoattack chance.

P.S. We all know changes are coming to the knight/chosen. Yes, all classes have underperforming skills but this topic is for knights..not other classes.
I played a KOTBS way much more than you even can imagine, and i have a wide open of KOTBS Servet first achievements in live Servers.

Just because you only Talk about one ability and lose the perspective about the full abilities amount, doesn't make the ability bad.

With damage shield aura, all out assault, shield of the Sun and the elemental damage dot.
You can deal four or more elemental damage hits and almost all of them withouth need to lose time with global cooldowns , in a elemental resistance debufed character (uncleanseable,undodgeable,unparryable and always up) and running)

Add more elemental attacks to the class, would be an overkill...even if you can't understand It.

Maybe you want to make KOTBS go back to the class launch timeline, when you could kill Witch elfs only with damage shield procs, area damage aura, etc...and best 4 vs 1 fights (yeah i killed 4 vs 1 un Prag, many times in live Servers)

The ability is not underperforming because the way damage shield aura, all out assault, shield of the Sun, and 3xstacking dot (all ability elemental damage) , and elemental resistance debuf + runefang tactic are working.

Actually the class itself is overperforming.
You are saying MF is fine... because all these other skills are fine. That doesn't make sense, and is not a valid argument here.

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Lektroluv
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Posts: 243

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#33 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:58 pm

Lektroluv wrote:
Spoiler:
Tankbeardz wrote:
Lektroluv wrote:

Why keep talking about wounds debuffs as something native in blackguard class? no it is not the wounds debuff tactic require spend much more points in malice path and require lose a tactic slot, and a critical hit.

Why make the kotbs a elemental damaging attack, withouth any requeriment in tactic slot, either spend as much points as hight the wounds debuff tactic is.

Kotbs has too many elemental damage attacks, the dot can stack 3 times isn't it? the damage shield is up there all the time, doesn't even need a cooldown, all out assault is up there withouth need a cooldown, shield of the sun is broken in this server procing from all attacks, not like it did on live server procing one time each 2 seconds... they even have an automatic elemental debuff aura, uncleanseable and withouth require any cooldown because auras are independent of global cooldown timer.

Kotbs it is already doing too much elemental damage for add, even more, withouth any requeriment.

And after all this, you have to add they have runefang tactic, which adds a bunch of strengh in the class.

The class itself it is overperforming, they don't need add another overperforming tool.
Clearly you have never played the class. Is it not a requirement to have a 40/40 to post here? The dot you are speaking of is useless. The elemental damage tactic is garbage...

I have been playing with the skill for giggles the last couple of nights and you lose a lot for very little gain. I wsa running about 730 STR and 350ish base weaponskill...with Runefang up and critting the ability was hitting for around 235ish. It is underperforming since you lose survivability to get it. I would agree with switching it to some kind of elemental damage or an autoattack chance.

P.S. We all know changes are coming to the knight/chosen. Yes, all classes have underperforming skills but this topic is for knights..not other classes.
I played a KOTBS way much more than you even can imagine, and i have a wide open of KOTBS Servet first achievements in live Servers.

Just because you only Talk about one ability and lose the perspective about the full abilities amount, doesn't make the ability bad.

With damage shield aura, all out assault, shield of the Sun and the elemental damage dot.
You can deal four or more elemental damage hits and almost all of them withouth need to lose time with global cooldowns , in a elemental resistance debufed character (uncleanseable,undodgeable,unparryable and always up) and running)

Add more elemental attacks to the class, would be an overkill...even if you can't understand It.

Maybe you want to make KOTBS go back to the class launch timeline, when you could kill Witch elfs only with damage shield procs, area damage aura, etc...and best 4 vs 1 fights (yeah i killed 4 vs 1 un Prag, many times in live Servers)

The ability is not underperforming because the way damage shield aura, all out assault, shield of the Sun, and 3xstacking dot (all ability elemental damage) , and elemental resistance debuf + runefang tactic are working.

Actually the class itself is overperforming.
You are saying MF is fine... because all these other skills are fine. That doesn't make sense, and is not a valid argument here.
Nope i don't say that, i say the ability is underperforming as chaneled ability, but the automatic elemental procs from auras and abilities are overperforming, so one things balance other.
Can't balance one parte, withouth balance other one, unless you want to make KOTBS gods
Last edited by Lektroluv on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#34 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:01 pm

That is not balance; that is poor design. If you think other skills are overperforming, then you should make a proposal for adjusting/nerfing them.

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GodlessCrom
Suspended
Posts: 1297

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#35 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:07 pm

Spoiler:
Shield of the sun is 10 second ability on 30 second CD. Blazing Blade doesnt even do elemental damage unless you waste a slot on Mighty Soul, which is one of the worst tactics for Knight. All Out Assault is for aoe farming or annoying people who think dueling knights is fun. None of these abilities over perform in the slightest, and you are getting basic details about them wrong in the first place.
That argument (that X is fine being bad because Y is overperforming) is not valid; don't reply to it.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#36 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:21 pm

Spoiler:
Keep on track here. We are talking about 1 ability...not the entire class. Your argument that changing one terrible ability into something that is somewhat useful will make the tank a "god" is wayyyyy out of left field. Honestly, I don't care if it is changed or not, I am just adding feedback.

I have a lot of knight experience on live also and this aint live. Stop comparing this to live. With the insane gear (pocket cleanses items, zero crit items, odjira, etc.) and and RR gap...I literally kited a warband in TM then killed the 4 or 5 stragglers when everyone else gave up. So what? It means nothing here.
Same as above.

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#37 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:28 pm

other tanks channel attacks require setups.
they don't hit like truck by skill itself.
setup requires gcd, tactic slots, mastery points, class mechanics and RR into 1 skill.
when they focus on that 1 skill, their playstyle and rotations are narrow.
no room for other actions. CC/guard/challenge/positioning?
it direct to dmg loss. ( it's hard to find dps tank willing to sacrifice dps )

now Relentless & MF.
very easy access.
you don't need( have ) setup. so you don't lose nor gain dmg.
it's not the 1 skill you focus every effort.
it's static mid dmg at mid mastery point.
easy mix between any rotations.

you need various supports from your own source for super channeling.
chosen/knight don't have these supports. -> no super channeling.
dps not tied to channeling could be advantage and unique?
anyway, if u need buff it should come from other sources. not buffing skill itself.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#38 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:21 pm

Torquemadra wrote: That isnt the real question or close to the issues at hand, if the best performing classes in game want their channel effect raised (and remember, though AA is suspended it will occur at the end of the channel allowing you to backload your damage) its not going to be an arbitrary increase in damage due to the fact that there is no caveat upon the mentioned channels (greatweapon) allowing shield bearers to gain a damage increase with virtually no trade off (1h weapon AA). In terms of Knight/Chosen DPS structure there is very little need for a 2h.

Now I can lock the channels to 2h only but it isnt possible to correctly grayscale them out at this point which is a little scruffy.
Torq, are the auras not on the table for a potential rework that could potentially move Chosen/KOBS from "best performing classes" to "good classes"? If so, it stands to reason that we should be balancing in light of where you want the class to head, rather than just "where it is today". What I mean by that is if its in the cards that you will make these auras require more management, maybe less uptime, or less overall impact (such as making them maybe ST debuffs instead of AOE, etc). Then we should be looking at some of these lack luster abilities (like Relentless + MF) in light of a potential aura rework... Otherwise there is no point in even discussing this stuff until that happens first.
Penril wrote:The fact that you haven't outright declined this proposal is a huge step imho.

Now, there are a few things you could do:

a) Lock the channels to 2H and Ignore the grayscale thing. I don't know any SnB KotBS/Chosen who specs these skills anyway; they all go for Knockdowns/Staggers/Slice through/Crippling Strikes/AP aura maybe; not one of them will even notice the change.

b) Use tactics (like you did with Hastened dismissal) to increase the effectiveness of those skills when using a 2H and reducing it when in SnB. For example:
- Increase the channels damage to an appropiate level.
- Increase their CDs to 20+ seconds.
- Efficient Swings and Oppresing Blows tactics: reduce the channels CD to 8s.

c) Move the skills up to 14 points and buff accordingly. KotBS would gain a AoE wounds debuff at 10 points, but it already requires a 2H anyway. Chosen would gain Rending Blade... also requires a 2H.

And i'm sure I missed a few other options.
The fact Torq hasnt locked and is still posting gives me tremendous hope TBH.

Really the bottom line is - I think Option C is the best. It solves the problem without making it more "restrictive". No SNB chosen or Kobs is going to spec full Left Mastery if they cannot get all the other benefits of that tree.... Such as EA crit tractic + the 2H debuff for Knights as well as Rending + Crit tractic for Chosen. Not to mention for Chosen and Knights the far RIGHT tree is usually specced into for the resists, so if they DO give up right tree Mastery, well it just seems like a VERY sub-optimal way to play to gain access to 1 ST damager ability...

Moving to tier 3, allows you to be justified in buffing this ability to compete with SM/BO. Now you dont need to grayscale, and you dont need to mess with other tactics and what not... Its the "KISS" solution IMO (Keep it Simple, Stupid).

I dont see the downside to this OTHER than the potential for a KOBS or Chosen who is SNB to start speccing Left Mastery, however I believe I already outlined a case above about why that is stupid (IMO).

I would rather see you guys NOT spend a ton of time on these and rather spend more time on adjusting the EZmode auras that make Chosen/KOBS the "king of tanks". Thats where the real balance lies...

@Torq, just make an executive decision on this man and move on... From what I can tell, and from my personal experience playing both these classes ALOT I really think the "move to tier 3 + buff the damage" solution is simple, and solves the problem - make it Ele + Spirit and beef up the base a tad and DONE.

Thats my humble opinion :)
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Annaise16
Posts: 341

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#39 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:52 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
Annaise16 wrote:The only real question is whether or not the abilities do more or less damage in 3 seconds than the kotbs/chosen can do with other direct damage abilties plus aa (taking proc into account). If they are doing less damage, buff them. If they are doing more damage, they don't need a buff.
That isnt the real question or close to the issues at hand, if the best performing classes in game want their channel effect raised (and remember, though AA is suspended it will occur at the end of the channel allowing you to backload your damage) its not going to be an arbitrary increase in damage due to the fact that there is no caveat upon the mentioned channels (greatweapon) allowing shield bearers to gain a damage increase with virtually no trade off (1h weapon AA). In terms of Knight/Chosen DPS structure there is very little need for a 2h.

Now I can lock the channels to 2h only but it isnt possible to correctly grayscale them out at this point which is a little scruffy.

Annaise16
Posts: 341

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#40 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:00 pm

The complaint is that the abilities do less damage than spamming Precision Strike/Ravage over a 3 second period. So, how is their damage not the issue?

Who was talking about an arbitrary change to their damage value? Simple dps tests for different strength and weapon skill combinations against different armor values can inform how much the damage should change. For example, let's say a 10-sec rotation that includes Relentless currently does 3000 damage compared to 3200 damage for Ravage spam in the 3-sec window where Relentless was used. Relentless could be boosted by 300 points so that the Relentless-rotation now does 3300 damage, 100 more than the alternative.

Changing the abilities to 2H only isn't going to make them any more or less desirable to spec if they do less damage than spamming PS/Ravage.

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