The fact that you haven't outright declined this proposal is a huge step imho.
Now, there are a few things you could do:
a) Lock the channels to 2H and Ignore the grayscale thing. I don't know any SnB KotBS/Chosen who specs these skills anyway; they all go for Knockdowns/Staggers/Slice through/Crippling Strikes/AP aura maybe; not one of them will even notice the change.
b) Use tactics (like you did with Hastened dismissal) to increase the effectiveness of those skills when using a 2H and reducing it when in SnB. For example:
- Increase the channels damage to an appropiate level.
- Increase their CDs to 20+ seconds.
- Efficient Swings and Oppresing Blows tactics: reduce the channels CD to 8s.
c) Move the skills up to 14 points and buff accordingly. KotBS would gain a AoE wounds debuff at 10 points, but it already requires a 2H anyway. Chosen would gain Rending Blade... also requires a 2H.
And i'm sure I missed a few other options.
[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
Nope i don't say that, i say the ability is underperforming as chaneled ability, but the automatic elemental procs from auras and abilities are overperforming, so one things balance other.Lektroluv wrote:You are saying MF is fine... because all these other skills are fine. That doesn't make sense, and is not a valid argument here.Spoiler:
Can't balance one parte, withouth balance other one, unless you want to make KOTBS gods
Last edited by Lektroluv on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
That is not balance; that is poor design. If you think other skills are overperforming, then you should make a proposal for adjusting/nerfing them.
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
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Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
other tanks channel attacks require setups.
they don't hit like truck by skill itself.
setup requires gcd, tactic slots, mastery points, class mechanics and RR into 1 skill.
when they focus on that 1 skill, their playstyle and rotations are narrow.
no room for other actions. CC/guard/challenge/positioning?
it direct to dmg loss. ( it's hard to find dps tank willing to sacrifice dps )
now Relentless & MF.
very easy access.
you don't need( have ) setup. so you don't lose nor gain dmg.
it's not the 1 skill you focus every effort.
it's static mid dmg at mid mastery point.
easy mix between any rotations.
you need various supports from your own source for super channeling.
chosen/knight don't have these supports. -> no super channeling.
dps not tied to channeling could be advantage and unique?
anyway, if u need buff it should come from other sources. not buffing skill itself.
they don't hit like truck by skill itself.
setup requires gcd, tactic slots, mastery points, class mechanics and RR into 1 skill.
when they focus on that 1 skill, their playstyle and rotations are narrow.
no room for other actions. CC/guard/challenge/positioning?
it direct to dmg loss. ( it's hard to find dps tank willing to sacrifice dps )
now Relentless & MF.
very easy access.
you don't need( have ) setup. so you don't lose nor gain dmg.
it's not the 1 skill you focus every effort.
it's static mid dmg at mid mastery point.
easy mix between any rotations.
you need various supports from your own source for super channeling.
chosen/knight don't have these supports. -> no super channeling.
dps not tied to channeling could be advantage and unique?
anyway, if u need buff it should come from other sources. not buffing skill itself.
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BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
Torq, are the auras not on the table for a potential rework that could potentially move Chosen/KOBS from "best performing classes" to "good classes"? If so, it stands to reason that we should be balancing in light of where you want the class to head, rather than just "where it is today". What I mean by that is if its in the cards that you will make these auras require more management, maybe less uptime, or less overall impact (such as making them maybe ST debuffs instead of AOE, etc). Then we should be looking at some of these lack luster abilities (like Relentless + MF) in light of a potential aura rework... Otherwise there is no point in even discussing this stuff until that happens first.Torquemadra wrote: That isnt the real question or close to the issues at hand, if the best performing classes in game want their channel effect raised (and remember, though AA is suspended it will occur at the end of the channel allowing you to backload your damage) its not going to be an arbitrary increase in damage due to the fact that there is no caveat upon the mentioned channels (greatweapon) allowing shield bearers to gain a damage increase with virtually no trade off (1h weapon AA). In terms of Knight/Chosen DPS structure there is very little need for a 2h.
Now I can lock the channels to 2h only but it isnt possible to correctly grayscale them out at this point which is a little scruffy.
The fact Torq hasnt locked and is still posting gives me tremendous hope TBH.Penril wrote:The fact that you haven't outright declined this proposal is a huge step imho.
Now, there are a few things you could do:
a) Lock the channels to 2H and Ignore the grayscale thing. I don't know any SnB KotBS/Chosen who specs these skills anyway; they all go for Knockdowns/Staggers/Slice through/Crippling Strikes/AP aura maybe; not one of them will even notice the change.
b) Use tactics (like you did with Hastened dismissal) to increase the effectiveness of those skills when using a 2H and reducing it when in SnB. For example:
- Increase the channels damage to an appropiate level.
- Increase their CDs to 20+ seconds.
- Efficient Swings and Oppresing Blows tactics: reduce the channels CD to 8s.
c) Move the skills up to 14 points and buff accordingly. KotBS would gain a AoE wounds debuff at 10 points, but it already requires a 2H anyway. Chosen would gain Rending Blade... also requires a 2H.
And i'm sure I missed a few other options.
Really the bottom line is - I think Option C is the best. It solves the problem without making it more "restrictive". No SNB chosen or Kobs is going to spec full Left Mastery if they cannot get all the other benefits of that tree.... Such as EA crit tractic + the 2H debuff for Knights as well as Rending + Crit tractic for Chosen. Not to mention for Chosen and Knights the far RIGHT tree is usually specced into for the resists, so if they DO give up right tree Mastery, well it just seems like a VERY sub-optimal way to play to gain access to 1 ST damager ability...
Moving to tier 3, allows you to be justified in buffing this ability to compete with SM/BO. Now you dont need to grayscale, and you dont need to mess with other tactics and what not... Its the "KISS" solution IMO (Keep it Simple, Stupid).
I dont see the downside to this OTHER than the potential for a KOBS or Chosen who is SNB to start speccing Left Mastery, however I believe I already outlined a case above about why that is stupid (IMO).
I would rather see you guys NOT spend a ton of time on these and rather spend more time on adjusting the EZmode auras that make Chosen/KOBS the "king of tanks". Thats where the real balance lies...
@Torq, just make an executive decision on this man and move on... From what I can tell, and from my personal experience playing both these classes ALOT I really think the "move to tier 3 + buff the damage" solution is simple, and solves the problem - make it Ele + Spirit and beef up the base a tad and DONE.
Thats my humble opinion
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
Torquemadra wrote:That isnt the real question or close to the issues at hand, if the best performing classes in game want their channel effect raised (and remember, though AA is suspended it will occur at the end of the channel allowing you to backload your damage) its not going to be an arbitrary increase in damage due to the fact that there is no caveat upon the mentioned channels (greatweapon) allowing shield bearers to gain a damage increase with virtually no trade off (1h weapon AA). In terms of Knight/Chosen DPS structure there is very little need for a 2h.Annaise16 wrote:The only real question is whether or not the abilities do more or less damage in 3 seconds than the kotbs/chosen can do with other direct damage abilties plus aa (taking proc into account). If they are doing less damage, buff them. If they are doing more damage, they don't need a buff.
Now I can lock the channels to 2h only but it isnt possible to correctly grayscale them out at this point which is a little scruffy.
Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury
The complaint is that the abilities do less damage than spamming Precision Strike/Ravage over a 3 second period. So, how is their damage not the issue?
Who was talking about an arbitrary change to their damage value? Simple dps tests for different strength and weapon skill combinations against different armor values can inform how much the damage should change. For example, let's say a 10-sec rotation that includes Relentless currently does 3000 damage compared to 3200 damage for Ravage spam in the 3-sec window where Relentless was used. Relentless could be boosted by 300 points so that the Relentless-rotation now does 3300 damage, 100 more than the alternative.
Changing the abilities to 2H only isn't going to make them any more or less desirable to spec if they do less damage than spamming PS/Ravage.
Who was talking about an arbitrary change to their damage value? Simple dps tests for different strength and weapon skill combinations against different armor values can inform how much the damage should change. For example, let's say a 10-sec rotation that includes Relentless currently does 3000 damage compared to 3200 damage for Ravage spam in the 3-sec window where Relentless was used. Relentless could be boosted by 300 points so that the Relentless-rotation now does 3300 damage, 100 more than the alternative.
Changing the abilities to 2H only isn't going to make them any more or less desirable to spec if they do less damage than spamming PS/Ravage.
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