[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

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OldSparky
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[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#1 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:01 pm

Wanted to make this post in Toldavf's topic linked below, but wasn't able to, so I'll make a post here (and I also want to make another suggestion). PM me or reply here if somethings wrong (or not clear) or if I should create 2 separate topics for those.

viewtopic.php?f=95&t=22419
About Toldavf's Relentless post:
He crafted 3 good points, but didn't provide specifics for 3rd point. My proposal to making Relentless usable is to buff damage per each attack by at least 25% and either make it Spirit Damage or make it bypass a certain % of armor (15% maybe?) or even undefendable (but lets not get carried away lol) if possible. If not, make a flat increase in damage that will make it worthwhile to spec (ranging from 40% to 70% to test and see which will be most reasonable?) and make it a good asset for Path of Dread Chosen.

About Crippling Strikes: I know getting AoE CS back the way it was is not an option, but hear me out on this: How about making Crippling Strikes hit only up to, for example, 3 or 5 players at the same time and nerf its damage decrease, so that it only reduces damage dealt to 85% and won't be able to reapply it until the current CS fades?

Hope my English isn't bad and everything is clear. So here are my suggestions.

EDIT: I did exaggerate the numbers on Relentless buff when it comes to damage buff %

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Toldavf
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(Chosen) Relentless

Post#2 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:42 pm

1. Identify the issue
Currently this skill has a less than useful level of damage. It's damage is so low that most players will bypass it in the tree.

2. Why is this an issue?
Speced skills should always be an asset to the class. In its current form it is a detriment that see's little play due to its low damage out put.

3. Proposal
There are for my book 2 choices when dealing with this skill.

First you could make it spirit damage. The inbuilt synergy should be obvious to everyone and it would probably be a sensible change.

or

You could leave it as a physical skill and merely up the damage 10% initially.

Why 10%?

Well tanks have multiple ways to manipulate how much damage they do things like taunt and focused offence have to be accounted for so i feel 10% is a safe starting spot for play testing.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Penril
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Re: (Chosen) Relentless

Post#3 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:15 pm

Moving to Discussions.

We will be discussing Relentless and Myrmidia's Fury. No Crippling Strikes, since it was changed in the last patch.

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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Mymidia's Fury

Post#4 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:39 pm

Well my opinion:

EDIT. Sorry Penril:
Spoiler:
Penril wrote:Keep BO/SM/BG/IB (they also have a channel) out of the discussion.

Are these 2 skills underperforming for what they cost? Yes/No?
Currently both moves are so bad, nobody uses them. One factor is loss of AA during the attacks. Second is they serve no real purpose other than "mediocre damage" and THIRD is they eat up 3 GCDs (roughly) to do mediocre damage.

I see the BIGGEST cost is ~3 GCDs. What you have to look at is what alternatives can said player use in that same time frame. Frankly, the damage needs to be ATLEAST superior to any other damage you could compile during those 3 GCDs, because frankly, if you can get higher damage with something that doesnt need to be channeled and likely does more than just damage, why use Relentless or Myrm Fury.

So to the OP/Proposal and Penril - MERELY making this "Spirit/Elemental" will not solve the issue. It wont be enough of a change. It still will not be worth the GCDs. You will have to make these Spirit/Elemental AS WELL AS increase their base damage by ~30% to make them more reasonable choices for the GCD.

I would also ask to consider moving these two abilities to the capstone (tier 3) rather than tier 2 and then making them a proper "damage" akin to BO/SM's capstones.

Either way, I think you need to find what would make these proper "benefits" for the GCDs. Also - when auras do get changed to become more "focused" my GUESS is it will likely entail some GCD usage there as well, which will COMPETE for GCDs of these abilities. So keep that in mind. Chosen and Knights have by FAR the lowest damage output. The only way you can argue against that statement is by looking at damage meters at the end of SCs or something which is a horrible gauge of actual damage.

So giving them an ability that is channeled, requires you to spec into, and eats up 3 GCDs to be a pure damager - well I dont see any issues with making it a LEGIT damager like the other tanks get with a similar ability.
Last edited by th3gatekeeper on Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Penril
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Mymidia's Fury

Post#5 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:45 pm

Keep BO/SM/BG/IB (they also have a channel) out of the discussion.

Are these 2 skills underperforming for what they cost? Yes/No?

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Mymidia's Fury

Post#6 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:49 pm

Make them spirit damage and elemental damage, respectively, per the first proposal of Toldavf. Since they are purely damage cooldowns, they should actually do decent damage. Would also bring them up to speed with all other tank channel attacks (other than Grudge-born Fury, which also sucks) which are fairly essential to tank dps (Ether Dance and THC are obvious, but Enraged Beating does a surprisingly high amount of damage and is very useful for Hate generation).

Perhaps make them require great weapon as well? Though tbh, I feel like 2h knight is almost always better than snb knight nowadays. Same cant be said for Chosen though.

also, gatekeeper: dont use the numbers from Career Builder. The Black Guard abilities, for example are calculated as if the character is lvl 40, but the Knight (and most others, to my knowledge) is calculated as if the character is lvl 25, so the damage numbers are way off. In addition, it does not take into account the damage bonus from going up in a mastery tree: i.e. simply reaching Enraged Beating or Ether Dance will make their base damage higher than it appears on Career Builder. Also, I think Enraged Beating may hit 7 times, as there is the initial hit and then it hits again for every half second afterwards. Could be totally wrong though, would have to look at my combat log. And finally, Ironbreakers have a channeled attack in their left tree like all other tanks: Grudge-born Fury. No one really takes it as it does pretty poor damage: gets out damaged by all other channels other than the crappy knight/chosen ones

Edit: sorry didnt see Penrils post until after I submitted mine. Sorry, ignore the other tank stuff. For the record: you do not necessarily lose AA during channel if you are wielding 2her. Most 2h go from 3.5-4.2 AA speed. Meaning you will lose at MOST 1 AA during a 3 second channel, and only if you had not just auto-attacked. Exceptions being if you have AA haste, either through Dom/oathstones gear or through tactic/ability (Red Fury from BO or the AA haste abilities BG/IB have) . Moreover, I believe it oftrn works out that you auto-attack immediately upon exiting a channel, though I am not sure if this always happens (i.e. AA gets reset upon channeling so its like your character begins their AA cycle again upon it ending, meaning an instant AA as if you had just right clicked an enemy and entered combat) or if it depends on timing.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Lektroluv
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Mymidia's Fury

Post#7 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:04 pm

Spoiler:
th3gatekeeper wrote:Well my opinion:
The other classes that have similar mechanics:
BG - Enraged Beating (Tier 1), is used to generate mechanic. Deals 283*6 hits = 1,698 (pre mitigated) damage.
SM- Ether Dance (tier 3) is used for damage. Deals 190*5 = 950 Spirit Damage (pre mitigated).
Blackguard channeled is hiting for 60hp in tanks, while SM has access to 2 spiritual defense debuffs, and a hardcap of 40% resulting in making 500-700 hp crits in other tanks... if you gonna compare abilities, play a blackguard and face a swordmaster.

There is a reason because order never asak for blackguard nerfs, it is because the class, even with the buffs and changes it is much worse than other tanks... and of course i included the best tank in game KOTBS.

How can someone ask for KOTBS'S buff giving them a channeled magical attack hiting 2 times per second, with him resistances aura debufing in area, uncleanseable, always up, not consuming any cooldown, etc.

If the ability is bad, sorry every class has bad abilities, KOTBS is already well served enough of good ones... even the wounds debuff attack is area one, and don't even need a critical hit like Blackguard one does, doesn't even need a hate spending attack for use an area attack or a tactic slot for debuff wounds.

KOTBS is light years away of ask for any buff, they actually are still mandatory and will ever be, unless the auras are changed to be 20 seconds buff, and spend a cooldown not independent of abilities and make them buff-debuff a single target, like blackguard has to do each 20 seconds with willpower or tough buffs abilities.
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Read the BDF rules. Are the skills underperforming Yes/No?

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Lektroluv
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Mymidia's Fury

Post#8 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:14 pm

Lektroluv wrote:
Spoiler:
th3gatekeeper wrote:Well my opinion:
The other classes that have similar mechanics:
BG - Enraged Beating (Tier 1), is used to generate mechanic. Deals 283*6 hits = 1,698 (pre mitigated) damage.
SM- Ether Dance (tier 3) is used for damage. Deals 190*5 = 950 Spirit Damage (pre mitigated).
Blackguard channeled is hiting for 60hp in tanks, while SM has access to 2 spiritual defense debuffs, and a hardcap of 40% resulting in making 500-700 hp crits in other tanks... if you gonna compare abilities, play a blackguard and face a swordmaster.

There is a reason because order never asak for blackguard nerfs, it is because the class, even with the buffs and changes it is much worse than other tanks... and of course i included the best tank in game KOTBS.

How can someone ask for KOTBS'S buff giving them a channeled magical attack hiting 2 times per second, with him resistances aura debufing in area, uncleanseable, always up, not consuming any cooldown, etc.

If the ability is bad, sorry every class has bad abilities, KOTBS is already well served enough of good ones... even the wounds debuff attack is area one, and don't even need a critical hit like Blackguard one does, doesn't even need a hate spending attack for use an area attack or a tactic slot for debuff wounds.

KOTBS is light years away of ask for any buff, they actually are still mandatory and will ever be, unless the auras are changed to be 20 seconds buff, and spend a cooldown not independent of abilities and make them buff-debuff a single target, like blackguard has to do each 20 seconds with willpower or tough buffs abilities.
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. Read the BDF rules. Are the skills underperforming Yes/No?
Ok, the skill is not underperforming, because kotbs has already acces to enough magical attacks, shield of the sun does magical damage, damage shield aura does magical damage, all out assault or whatever the area damage aura name is, is doing magical damage.

KOTBS doesn't need any other magical attack, when they have access to all that magical attacks and a debuff aura always up and running.

No, it is not underperforming, it is complimented by those abilities, and not needed... that is why the ability damage was lower than other tanks.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#9 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:20 pm

Counterpoint: no competent player in the history of the game specs for these abilities in any circumstance ever as they are almost certainly always a dps loss. Now true, this would be a buff to the two best tanks in the game (knight moreso than chosen) and I can see trepidation behind that. But they are truly two of the most useless abilities ever.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Lektroluv
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#10 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:24 pm

I would grant autoattacks happening while the kotbs and chosen are using that chaneled ability, but changing the damage to magical damage, is a big mistake in my opinion.

But only for KoTBS-CHOSEN, other tanks don't need autoattacks while the use of chaneled abilities.

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