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[Engi / Magus] Loner Tactic

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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Karast
Posts: 554

[Engi / Magus] Loner Tactic

Post#1 » Mon May 22, 2017 1:14 pm

Spoiler:
Hello everyone,

This is a very simple and basic proposal. I propose that Engi / Magus gain access to the all by myself pet tactics from SH / WL.

For those that don't know what these tactics are, they are tactics that increase dps by 25% when no pet is active.

The long and the short of this proposal is that adding this tactic to magus and engi will help improve build diversity, and help alleviate issues when it comes to mechanic setup time and mobility.

Just like with SH / WL they increase dps in situations where pets are not very useful, but at the cost of the abilities and tactics that require the pets to function.

An example of this in use would be in a warband group. In very mobile fights where you are constantly pushing, and retreating. It can be near impossible for an engi / magus to keep full or high stacks with their turret / magus. There just simply isn't enough time to wait for it to build, and you have to respawn far to often to really be able to count on having the bonuses. This tactic would help to increase dps in these situations, where engi / magus currently lag behind.

Now for an engi / magus who has a dependable position where they can keep and maintain full stacks the tactic would be next to useless. As full stacks on a turret / daemon would provide not only greater dps 40% vs. 25% but access to pet mechanic buffs like the range increase, pet damage / debuffs, and the best based tactics and abilities.

This gives the tactic some nice situational uses, helps to give more build / play options, and helps to smooth out a current rough spot with mechanic.

((Edit: As per Penril, I will update this post with a slightly different suggestion from the copy tactic that would serve a similar purpose. I have a few ideas and will write them up tomorrow, but personally I do not mind parity of tactics between similar classes. Many core tactics are already shared for threat management / generation, and for core stats. I view pet tactics as being within the same vein.))
As per Penril here are some modified suggestions other than a basic tactic copy swap from SH / WL, towards the goal of providing an option for non pet play / more mobile play. Most the reasoning and explanations for such a change are in the original proposal in the spoiler above.

Suggestions: New Tactic Unencumbered

#1 A new core tactic that tactic would disable all turrets preventing their use, but provide additional benefits such as a flat 25% armor ignore / resist ignore. This helps bridge the dps loss from turrets, but still keeps it below turret level, and rather than providing a flat increase on the top, it works from enemy mitigation.

#2 A new core tactic that allows cast on the move for most abilities, but again prevents the spawning and use of turrets. This would give more mobility with our existing skills, but at the same time still be less damage than in a ideal turret setup, and without the ability the spawn turrets it becomes and very risk versus reward choice in tactics. Certain abilities like snipe and potentially magnet could be locked out to press for different rotations and play-styles built around abilities like gunblast.

But of these work in a similar vein to the original suggestion in that by sacrificing turrets and daemons you can gain more mobility, and the tactics would help even out the loss of the turrets to an extent, but in an ideal situation these new tactics would still be subpar to a turret engi.
Last edited by Karast on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#2 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:25 pm

Karast, as per Torque's post in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=72&t=21987&start=20#p243779) I believe a loner spec for Engi/Magus is a valid proposal. However, I don't entirely agree on simply giving them tactics from other classes.

I will give you a few days to think if you want to change this proposal.

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#3 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:00 pm

Moving to Discussions.

I said "I" don't agree with giving them tactics from other classes. But if the general consensus is that it is fine, then who am I to judge?

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peterthepan3
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Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#4 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:33 pm

Why would we encourage giving the Magus/Engineer a tactic that effectively negates the mechanic they were designed around? The damage they dish out is not an issue, its just the application of said damage/making it consistent.

1) No. The Magus is starved for tactics as it is, why would you lose an incredible amount of your damage (no stacks & no pet damage), your utility (aoe KD, ele debuff, crit reduc) just to gain 25% resistance ignore? Bypassing resistances is not an issue as a Magus (make friendly with a DPS Shaman), and it has been stated numerous times that engineer/sw/sh vs high armor won't be an issue here as it was on live.

2) Isn't that what the middle tree does already, i.e. castable abilities on the move, and quicker dot ticks? Again, I don't think we should promote a more mobile Magus and, instead, strengthen its role as a stationary long-range caster. Sure, the middle trees are designed to be more mobile and I'm all for that, but what's wrong with the changes that were implemented a while back that allowed certain abilities to be castable on the move - as long as you used the right pet (and thereby, you are still using your class mechanic)? It's been a while since I played magus, so I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me whether or not these experimental changes are still in place.
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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#5 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:00 am

peterthepan3 wrote:Why would we encourage giving the Magus/Engineer a tactic that effectively negates the mechanic they were designed around? The damage they dish out is not an issue, its just the application of said damage/making it consistent.

1) No. The Magus is starved for tactics as it is, why would you lose an incredible amount of your damage (no stacks & no pet damage), your utility (aoe KD, ele debuff, crit reduc) just to gain 25% resistance ignore? Bypassing resistances is not an issue as a Magus (make friendly with a DPS Shaman), and it has been stated numerous times that engineer/sw/sh vs high armor won't be an issue here as it was on live.

2) Isn't that what the middle tree does already, i.e. castable abilities on the move, and quicker dot ticks? Again, I don't think we should promote a more mobile Magus and, instead, strengthen its role as a stationary long-range caster. Sure, the middle trees are designed to be more mobile and I'm all for that, but what's wrong with the changes that were implemented a while back that allowed certain abilities to be castable on the move - as long as you used the right pet (and thereby, you are still using your class mechanic)? It's been a while since I played magus, so I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me whether or not these experimental changes are still in place.
1) Not all utility is tied to turrets and daemons, and in a lot of situations it is just not possible to sit with a turret or daemon or to constantly respawn it on the go. The focus of this change is to give the option for more mobile play, but in all situations being more stationary will be better for overall dps. Even with the new tactics, stand and spam with full turret stacks will be better damage and utility, all these tactics would do is give a slight bump in the situations where such play is impossible. SH / WL have the ability to give up the pets at a great cost to themselves, and their version of the no pet tactic only helps reduce the gap. Is it really so bad to give engineers / maguses more spec'ing options? As far as armor goes, that is a bit off topic. The armor ignore tactic is merely an example of another way of increasing dps without just copying the 25% damage tactic. Is 25% ignore better than the 40% from turrets? If so then it would be hard to say that armor isn't an issue.

2) The cast on the move turrets still exist, but they are simply not effective. The combination of must slot tactics, the AP cost of continually respawning the turrets, and the weakness of the middle tree makes the changes weak compared to the increased range, and dodge / disrupt.

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Wdova
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Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#6 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:55 am

Playing engi/magus without daemons/turrets is bad idea same as playing SH/WL without pets.
You loose too much to gain too little.

I am saying this from begining, that thanks to imobility of daemons and turrets, those should be insta cast as core mechanic(without need of sloting tactic).
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Glorian
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Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#7 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:28 am

To start with the original idea of the +15% damage if without pet tactic.

If this should be active I would change my instacast tactic, or half builduptime tactic with it. As both are mandatory.

What is then the tactical situation?

If I chase an enemy across the SC or map I still have +15 damage. If I have some time to stop I can put up a turret and get the bonus if I stand still.

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Wdova
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Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#8 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:11 pm

Glorian wrote:To start with the original idea of the +15% damage if without pet tactic.

If this should be active I would change my instacast tactic, or half builduptime tactic with it. As both are mandatory.

What is then the tactical situation?

If I chase an enemy across the SC or map I still have +15 damage. If I have some time to stop I can put up a turret and get the bonus if I stand still.
Are you willing to trade all bonuses from turrets(+25% range, +40% dmg, armor penetrating round(armor debuff) and dmg from turrets for +15% dmg tactic without turret presented? WoW, I am amazed.
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Glorian
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Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#9 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:36 pm

This is not an exclusive situation.

The +15% tactic doesn't mean that you can never build anymore turrets.

If I let my turret explode I'm still to 15% damage. If I chase someone around the map I'm at 15%.

If I'm at a funnel I build my turret and have my full bonus. Same on keep wall.

So this tactic is something like an insurance. Instead of boosting me when I have a turret with +15% Crit or something , I want to have +15% damage when I'm without.

Overall I doubt that this tactic makes the Engi full mobile or solves the middle tree. But I find it interesting and would definitely test it.

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Wdova
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Re: [Engi / Magus] All by myself tactic

Post#10 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:48 am

Glorian wrote:This is not an exclusive situation.

The +15% tactic doesn't mean that you can never build anymore turrets.

If I let my turret explode I'm still to 15% damage. If I chase someone around the map I'm at 15%.

If I'm at a funnel I build my turret and have my full bonus. Same on keep wall.

So this tactic is something like an insurance. Instead of boosting me when I have a turret with +15% Crit or something , I want to have +15% damage when I'm without.

Overall I doubt that this tactic makes the Engi full mobile or solves the middle tree. But I find it interesting and would definitely test it.
Engi and magus in general have so many usefull tactic, and they are forced to use insta turret/demon cast tactic in orvr. Making both(turrets and daemons) insta cast will free up 1 tactic slot.

If I would play engi, all by myself tactic would be the last I would think off if You ask me.
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