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[AM/Sham] AP Drain

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#91 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:07 pm

Dabbart wrote:Yes we did run an AP drain group on order. It worked well. On the bus I'll type it out when I get home. Short answer, no it didn't perform better. But that was in Order side, I haven't tried a dedicated AP drain fro on destro.

And you keep trying to push this discussion towards the meta. Why? No we don't regularly run double AP drain. But I ran a triple AM group on order last week for lolz. I was on DPS, and we giggled the entire time as we AP drained everyone.

How about this Bozz. Answer your own questions, and respond to the issues I have already raised. The ones you quoted. Cause it sounds like you are the one theory crafting.
So we nerf ap drain (AM/SHMY) based on troll grps trolling (pugs?)

Even though they after recent change to 13pts leech may be out of meta setup again (I actually don't know if they are or not).

I'm just a puggie nowdays so I'm unable to answer the questions but going by a zillion 12v12 or PUG scs I'd say I fear ap drain soft disables less then BW or SW hard disables. Also vs premades ap drain is the least of my problems.
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Stmichael1989
Posts: 184

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#92 » Thu May 25, 2017 7:11 pm

Bozzax wrote:I'd say I fear ap drain soft disables less then BW or SW hard disables.
That's the thing, you have to worry about both since AP drain CC ignores CC immunity.
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Landgoat
Posts: 132

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#93 » Thu May 25, 2017 8:12 pm

@dabbartz

As you can see i said the AP drain can be easily countered and you proved my point. 2 shamans in a 6v6 didn't work well, more than half the time we cast on the RP he disrupted it. When we were using it on the WL it was cleansed off while the WP healed. When it does land it can be countered with AP pots, AP feed abilites and AP feed tactics. It was an extremely well organized team we were playing against, and a good fight. But like I said, we lost in the end and even a shaman double AP drain can easily be countered.
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Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#94 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:00 pm

I guess after 10 pages one could say that one part of the community doesn't see an issue while others perceive it as rather unbalanced.

I might be wrong but to me it looks like the more hardcore players see it as a problem while the more casual players dont. It might very well be that the potency of the spell is dependent on the level of skill involved.

The entire cleansing argument is a good example of that. In fights between the best groups on the server you wont see every many AP drain cleanses. Thats not because they dont try. But rather because there are ways to prevent it.
But by defintion not everyone can/does play on that level. This means cleansing might very well be a valid counterplay for the majority of the players.
The question is then: Around what level of play do you balance? And how do we move forward with this proposal?

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#95 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:02 pm

If your taking triple drains from AM/Shaman's I'm assuming 2 of those drains are coming from your healer's then your group comp has a dramatic weakness against what they can't cleanse.

If your taking double drains from AM/Shaman's from your healer's then your group comp has a dramatic weakness against what they can't cleanse.

If your taking triple drains from AM/Shaman's that has only 1 of them as a healer and the other 2 is a dps then your damage output is not going to be as high as traditional dps classes. That is also a exotic group comp and has high weaknesses irregardless. Which is cool to have. I enjoy playing exotic group comps that have weaknesses but strengths.

Pro's and con's always.

Btw what do you got with triple drain's from AM's/Shaman's? A half ass racial group. Your stacking your strengths as opposed to mitigating your weaknesses. Instead of limping in go balls deep. You'll have drastic weaknesses but overwhelming strengths. which is a valid way to play. If you meet your counter comp your screwed, it is a acceptable amount of risk to take for your given strengths. Mitigate your weaknesses through good gameplay. Think outside the box. Look at the tools you have available. Re-think what you think is possible.

Lets glaze through some powerful duo's.
Two Dok's/WP, Two Knights/chosen's, two SM's/BO's, two slayer's,choppa's two WH's/WE's, and to INCLUDE two AM's/Shaman's, are all very powerful to have in a single group comp and the list goes on and on. There is a trend there guys, stop fighting it.

Btw I wrote more then a year ago on how strong AM's/Shaman's were with their snaring and ap drain's capabilities if you stack AM's/shaman's in (Mythic) origin's of balance thread. The server community laughed me off as a joke. What's changed in a year or so? A experimental change that increased the population of AM's/Shaman's. Which mean's player's are having to deal with what I was talking about a year ago. Now we are having a discussion on nerfing what I was talking about... classic. So so frustrating.

This game is WAY more flexible/brutal then player's give it credit.
Again, I agree with option 1 with no other changes.

Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#96 » Thu May 25, 2017 11:40 pm

Spoiler:
No point.
Last edited by Dabbart on Fri May 26, 2017 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Landgoat
Posts: 132

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#97 » Fri May 26, 2017 1:11 am

Spoiler:
Dabbart wrote:no amount of AP drains woulda saved you...
This proves my point that AP drains can be countered with a well coordinated and experienced group.
Cherrypicking, respond to the points others have raised.
Gerv.
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Shaman/ Landy - rr80
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#98 » Fri May 26, 2017 1:20 am

Edit: Screw it. Best of luck boys. I'm tired of this circular argument.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#99 » Fri May 26, 2017 6:08 am

Cimba wrote:I guess after 10 pages one could say that one part of the community doesn't see an issue while others perceive it as rather unbalanced.

I might be wrong but to me it looks like the more hardcore players see it as a problem while the more casual players dont. It might very well be that the potency of the spell is dependent on the level of skill involved.

The entire cleansing argument is a good example of that. In fights between the best groups on the server you wont see every many AP drain cleanses. Thats not because they dont try. But rather because there are ways to prevent it.
But by defintion not everyone can/does play on that level. This means cleansing might very well be a valid counterplay for the majority of the players.
The question is then: Around what level of play do you balance? And how do we move forward with this proposal?
Put it on bug tracker and return it to 3s ticks
(or have it auto dispel if it drains (any tick) more ap then hosts has)
Last edited by Bozzax on Fri May 26, 2017 7:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#100 » Fri May 26, 2017 6:44 am

Auto dispell if No Ap is decent fix aswell. DoTs do upon 0 HP so i guess it would make sence for the APoT effects aswell.
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