[Engi / Magus] Pet Spawning

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Glorian
Posts: 4369

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#21 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Tankbeardz wrote:
Karast wrote:I can see there are a lot of negative opinions on my proposed changes, and I can understand some of the arguments, but I cannot see how anyone can claim that either going CQ or WOM are not mandatory in any 6v6 build.

Is there anyone who could give a more detailed argument on why they are not mandatory in a premade situation. 2s is a long time to waste on a cast to only have then have to wait for the mechanic to build. There are very few point defense scenarios where you can be 100% immobile, and in those situations other rdps preform just as well if not better than engi / magus do with less lead time and setup.

Every fight is not going to be one where you have had 20s to setup and wait for the enemy, especially in a 6v6 where the enemy is not just going to let you stand around. Mobility is survivability in this game.

Also it is not possible to spam turrets even on instant cast. The AP requirement kills this, and re-spawning ruins your upgrades.

This is merely a quality of life fix for a clunky mechanic. It would turn a 20s setup into an 18s setup, and give much needed tactic space to tactic starved careers.
I agree with most of Karast's opinions. What is it with this whole "stationary" dps mindset? Battles aren't stationary.
The current turret buffs were introduced as the benefit for magus and Engi being a stationary class.
And that they not be turned into something more like SH and SW.

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Tankbeardz
Posts: 553

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#22 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:06 pm

Glorian wrote:
Tankbeardz wrote:
Karast wrote:I can see there are a lot of negative opinions on my proposed changes, and I can understand some of the arguments, but I cannot see how anyone can claim that either going CQ or WOM are not mandatory in any 6v6 build.

Is there anyone who could give a more detailed argument on why they are not mandatory in a premade situation. 2s is a long time to waste on a cast to only have then have to wait for the mechanic to build. There are very few point defense scenarios where you can be 100% immobile, and in those situations other rdps preform just as well if not better than engi / magus do with less lead time and setup.

Every fight is not going to be one where you have had 20s to setup and wait for the enemy, especially in a 6v6 where the enemy is not just going to let you stand around. Mobility is survivability in this game.

Also it is not possible to spam turrets even on instant cast. The AP requirement kills this, and re-spawning ruins your upgrades.

This is merely a quality of life fix for a clunky mechanic. It would turn a 20s setup into an 18s setup, and give much needed tactic space to tactic starved careers.
I agree with most of Karast's opinions. What is it with this whole "stationary" dps mindset? Battles aren't stationary.
The current turret buffs were introduced as the benefit for magus and Engi being a stationary class.
And that they not be turned into something more like SH and SW.
I disagree with you. We have a DPS paths and support paths for a reason.

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Tesq
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#23 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:15 pm

i agree with the op problem, but disagree with the solutions; the redeploy/resummon should remain as it's now, not being reworked maybe lower the cd to 15/10 sec (definetly some kind of CD love should be given). The redepoly/resummon skill is what actually make the pets viable, if you set the pet in the right position (hardly get fopcussed as a wl pet) most of time you can just re deploy it around ( a bad redeploy screw you a bit hence reduces the CD). Rework it into a ap saver wont help magus/engi because :

a) left build is not ap hungry , an ap potion fix the problem 100% of the time even with mins of CD, middle build allow you to take ap tactic because require less tactic (is no good as left one currently but you have that slot for it). Aoe set up hardly have ap problem due to group buff
b)Change the redeploy would force you "every time" you move around to waste precious seconds re summon the pet which is against the aim of the discussion

NB: Alternatively make different the magus/engi implementation; magus on the move 2 sec cast /engi 1 sec static cast (disk and summoning a deamon from the warp mean mobile but take more second, while deploy a alredy prepared turret but need to stop and put it on the field).

Additional: due to the buff maybe introduces a 5-10 sec CD when the pet die (similar to wl pet) so that there are contr in loose a pet but also pro with the new fixes
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Grunbag
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Posts: 1641

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#24 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:23 pm

Tankbeardz wrote:
Glorian wrote:
Tankbeardz wrote:
I agree with most of Karast's opinions. What is it with this whole "stationary" dps mindset? Battles aren't stationary.
The current turret buffs were introduced as the benefit for magus and Engi being a stationary class.
And that they not be turned into something more like SH and SW.
I disagree with you. We have a DPS paths and support paths for a reason.
dps path doesn't mean to be mobile and support path doesn't mean being stationary.
Engi/magus as glorian explained, are designed to be stationary dps, that's why we got such great buff with turret.
adding more mobility would result to nerf turret buff later certainly.

Azarael compared engi/magus to weapon siege alike. Noone said karast proposal was all bad, that's the mobile part that don't fit the class for some of us.
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Tankbeardz
Posts: 553

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#25 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:26 pm

Grunbag wrote:
Tankbeardz wrote:
Glorian wrote:
The current turret buffs were introduced as the benefit for magus and Engi being a stationary class.
And that they not be turned into something more like SH and SW.
I disagree with you. We have a DPS paths and support paths for a reason.
dps path doesn't mean to be mobile and support path doesn't mean being stationary.
Engi/magus as glorian explained, are designed to be stationary dps, that's why we got such great buff with turret.
adding more mobility would result to nerf turret buff later certainly.

Azarael compared engi/magus to weapon siege alike. Noone said karast proposal was all bad, that's the mobile part that don't fit the class for some of us.
Spoiler:
Fights are mobile and dps classes should be mobile IMO.
I hate the turret buffs and would prefer a change into class viability. I think I have echoed this statement enough times. That's great that you have your tank build now...why limit others that disagree with that playstyle?
Blanket statements akin to "Fights are mobile" lack supporting evidence as per the guidelines for topic responders in here viewtopic.php?f=96&t=11105 - i.e. pressure applied through casting setback by melee and cc applied by tanks force rdps to have some mobile option.

- Refrain from posting your opinion on aspects that are not under-consideration nor contribute in a positive direction to agreeing with and supporting the original post or debunking proposed alternative solutions by other community members, i.e turret buffs and explain how OP solutions do not impeed on or remove the viability of existing defensive play-styles.

Gerv

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Tesq
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#26 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:31 pm

Grunbag wrote:
Tankbeardz wrote:
Glorian wrote:
The current turret buffs were introduced as the benefit for magus and Engi being a stationary class.
And that they not be turned into something more like SH and SW.
I disagree with you. We have a DPS paths and support paths for a reason.
dps path doesn't mean to be mobile and support path doesn't mean being stationary.
Engi/magus as glorian explained, are designed to be stationary dps, that's why we got such great buff with turret.
adding more mobility would result to nerf turret buff later certainly.

Azarael compared engi/magus to weapon siege alike. Noone said karast proposal was all bad, that's the mobile part that don't fit the class for some of us.
bw/sorc are neither designed to be mobile or stationary but they have the best meccanic in game; the fact that you allow to redeploy possibly on the move don't make the classes mobile.... not even close to a sw that can aoe or shoot on the move or a bw full rotation exept the channeling. That's just an excuse due to fear of more meta shift. Even make em more mobile in term with other rdps in game would not allow them to have the same escape tool of sw/squig.
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Grunbag
Project Team
Posts: 1641

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#27 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:41 pm

Karast wrote:I can see there are a lot of negative opinions on my proposed changes, and I can understand some of the arguments, but I cannot see how anyone can claim that either going CQ or WOM are not mandatory in any 6v6 build.

Is there anyone who could give a more detailed argument on why they are not mandatory in a premade situation. 2s is a long time to waste on a cast to only have then have to wait for the mechanic to build. There are very few point defense scenarios where you can be 100% immobile, and in those situations other rdps preform just as well if not better than engi / magus do with less lead time and setup.

Every fight is not going to be one where you have had 20s to setup and wait for the enemy, especially in a 6v6 where the enemy is not just going to let you stand around. Mobility is survivability in this game.

Also it is not possible to spam turrets even on instant cast. The AP requirement kills this, and re-spawning ruins your upgrades.

This is merely a quality of life fix for a clunky mechanic. It would turn a 20s setup into an 18s setup, and give much needed tactic space to tactic starved careers.
You have actually the possibility to cast faster turret and cast it on the move with WOM.
The problem, indeed, is that you need to use redeploy if the fight is moving, and it has a huge AP cost (60ap)
To solve this, glorian found a better alternative with changing WOM to also reduce redeploy CD to 10 sec and works as the tooltip destription (0ap)

In a ORVR premade situation, this would allowed you to follow the fight. IMO, the engineer/magus mechanic is about staying statationary, i know it could be frustrating sometimes, but that's what engi/magus are looking for wen they chose this class.

Most of ability of engineer have timecast, it mean that you're always have to stay stationnary if you want to use your abilites (this has been changed with bombardment turret that already gave you some mobility)
Actually even if you can cast on the move or have more mobility, you won't being competitive against kiters because you have too much "stationnary" abilities:

napalm, lightning rod, crack shot, sniper, phosphorious shells, and all yours grenades (expect if you're using bombadment turret now)

chasing kiters woud be hard anyway, too much abilities are design for being stationary.

glorian'd solution won't solve the mobility issue, but it'd help engineer/magus to keep their turret bonus if the fight is moving.
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Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Karast
Posts: 552

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#28 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:48 pm

Grunbag wrote:You have actually the possibility to cast faster turret and cast it on the move with WOM.
The problem, indeed, is that you need to use redeploy if the fight is moving, and it has a huge AP cost (60ap)
To solve this, glorian found a better alternative with changing WOM to also reduce redeploy CD to 10 sec and works as the tooltip destription (0ap)

In a ORVR premade situation, this would allowed you to follow the fight. IMO, the engineer/magus mechanic is about staying statationary, i know it could be frustrating sometimes, but that's what engi/magus are looking for wen they chose this class.

Most of ability of engineer have timecast, it mean that you're always have to stay stationnary if you want to use your abilites (this has been changed with bombardment turret that already gave you some mobility)
Actually even if you can cast on the move or have more mobility, you won't being competitive against kiters because you have too much "stationnary" abilities:

napalm, lightning rod, crack shot, sniper, phosphorious shells, and all yours grenades (expect if you're using bombadment turret now)

chasing kiters woud be hard anyway, too much abilities are design for being stationary.

glorian'd solution won't solve the mobility issue, but it'd help engineer/magus to keep their turret bonus if the fight is moving.
This is not about chasing kiters. Even with my proposed changes you would still not be able to chase kiters for all the above reason you listed. It is just about removing the chunkiness and giving a slight bit more mobility and reduced setup time, and clearing away some of the tactic bloat.

There are a lot of tactics that don't get play that could find a home in builds if there were room to slot them, and removing a must slot that exists to make a clunky mechanic less clunky is a good way to do it. Hand-crafted scope, pierce defense, extra ammo, tracer rounds, concussive mine. Engi's and Magi have to make hard tactic choices between dps or support because we have too many must slots. Removing the need for cq / wom for clunkiness issues lets you consider some new builds that would have been impossible before.

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Tankbeardz
Posts: 553

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#29 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:00 pm

Grunbag wrote: In a ORVR premade situation, this would allowed you to follow the fight. IMO, the engineer/magus mechanic is about staying statationary, i know it could be frustrating sometimes, but that's what engi/magus are looking for wen they chose this class.
Spoiler:
This is how YOU feel and you now have the ability to camp flags and tank a bunch of people.
- Failure to, again, contribute positively to the discussion via role/rules of topic responders posted here viewtopic.php?f=96&t=11105
- posting in a manor which derails the discussion and is unwarranted.

- Warned

Gerv

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1065

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#30 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:30 pm

Almost no part of this game is purely 6v6. Almost all scenario's created by mythic are 12v12 and higher.

Almost all the SC's in this game can make use of this style of play I described earlier. Very few sc's can't make use of this style of play if any can't. What I'm trying to say is the magus/engineer defines the groups fighting style. Its not the other way around. You can't fit in the engineer into the fighting style of the kiting meta. You can try and it will be bad. Think of the group I described earlier as a slow moving bulldozer of area denial. You have to place your area denial in strategic desirable locations.

To me the must have tactics are lasting chaos tactic/extra ammo in any build. Expert skirimsher I can see the use of because it serves multiple uses and is a dps increaser. But well-oiled machine/chaos attunement is a waste of a tactic slot and is garbage. Even with the changes proposed I would still think its garbage. You just don't need to slot well-oiled machine/chaos attunement. Those tactics are just a handi-cap to the engineer/magus to try and force them into something they are not designed to do.

Well-oiled machine/chaos attunement is 100% not needed and is not a must have tactic slot at all.

The whole backbone of karast argument is that these two tactic slots are must have's. They are not must have's at all. Not even close.

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