[Engi / Magus] Pet Spawning

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1063

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:59 am

Ok this is a long post I'll put things in spoilers.

The main argument that karast states is that the engineer needs to be more mobile. It does not need to be more mobile. In the spoiler below I go into what kind of support a engineer needs to not be more mobile. It is a entire play style.
Spoiler:
The engineer/magus probably need the most group support out of all the classes.

What is the group support you need?
You need to have comms.
You need a guard.
You need a healer that is tough enough to take a lot of damage. This could be be a warrior priest or a runepriest that is heavily defensively built ideally using the regenerative shielding tactic if your opposition is heavy physical damage or using Ancestor's echo tactic or both. The runepriest should probably have concussive runes tactic slotted also. Both of these healers benefit from this stationary play style.
You need to have your healer and tank stand next to you so your tank can easily switch guard if it is needed and not have to chase down your healers to save them. AM healers are not ideal.
You need to have tanks that know how to cycle challenge shout and maintain it on high dps targets.
You need to have really good tanks that know how to switch guard.
You need to have tanks willing to switch to SnB if the ranged threat is high enough and a mechanism to permanently hold the line if the situation calls for it.

Slot in your morale 2 armored plating as a clutch morale save. Incorrect morale gain rates screw with this.

Gear appropriately. This means if your dieing a lot you might need to go more defensive. If you gear defensively you can probably survive with a floated guard. If you gear offensively you'll probably need a dedicated guard. You can also go hybrid.

Max out your deft defender.

Get a complimentary dps that isn't terribly squishy to stand next to you that can assist along with a tank and ideally 2nd defensive style healer either another WP or another runepriest.

Get a couple of group AP feeds to help you pump out even more damage. Extra ammo and lasting chaos tactic is perfect for this or the AP feed runes/rituals or ap feed aura's.

What is this doing? Your building a group that is in support of your engineer. Your building a group that is stationary.

The class is a area denial class. The class is designed to hold BO's and fight at choke points and fight in open area's. The class is about pre-planning and set up. Set up your turret on the position you want to defend. If you can't set up your turret because there is too much enemy at your desired location set it up in a location that is safe. Build turret bonuses and creep summon your turret into the new location. You want to grind into the desired location without separating your group.

When the group moves. Move it as a tight nit cluster. So tight that everyone is within 20ft of one centric player. The entire group is leashed to the engineer's turret so the group only moves every 20 sec's. Its a stationary playstyle but a hyper defensive one. There are SOOO many additional benefits to this style of play over multiple different classes but I'm not going into that because that requries me to write more.

If you have access to a defensive morale cycle use it. This play style is highly rewarded for it.

Park the group on desirable locations or creep the group in to the desirable location.
What are desirable locations?
Any BO in the ORvR lakes.
Any chokepoint in ORvR.
Flag in doomfist SC/isha SC/Fortress flag in nordland
Flag in caledor woods sc/Gate switch in gates of ekrund
Keg spawn point in talebec damn
Key strategic spawn points of desirable objects
Flag spawn point in stonetroll's crossing
Part spawn point in serpents passage
Your own flag in phoenix gate/khaine's embrace
hold the murder ball and park your group on him in mourkain temple/tor anroc/Maw of madness.
Lots more stuff I could list.

Play objective based pvp. Focus on the objective and not kills. Have the discipline to not chase kills that will break your cluster. You are safe in your cluster.

I have video if you want me to show it. It is not of the ideal makeup thou.

Why did I write this the way that I did?
I wrote this out like this because it is a series of nuance points built on top of other nuance points. I still probably didn't do a good job at explanation. I could go into SOO much more depth. It is a entire play style.


You don't need to slot those tactic's if you have this kind of group support. They are not mandatory because your changing the play style and not participating in the kiting meta. You outlast and grind and use the objectives to gain victory. The class is not designed to participate in the kiting meta.

I'm not proposing a solution because I don't think anything needs to be changed. No disrespect to karast but I don't think there is a issue here.

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Grunbag
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#12 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:21 am

Where I'm agree with footpatrol is that te class was made to be as a weapon siege (like dev said when they buff engineer/magus) , mostly strong for holding places .
I also remember that engineer was first made to be a CC/support class , really usefull in a group.

More and more , engineer turning to be a great DPS class , but less a support/CC .
Some things was wrong with engineer , and great buff has been added .
but I don't see why we're trying to make it a mobile class, and focus more on the dps side of the class .

Where I'm not agree with you footpatrol, is that those 2 tactics are usefull , even if you play support path: expert shirmisher allowed you to spam faster the heal keg , and have this doubled tick . As a tinkerer , this tactic is a must have . When you can spam faster some abilities , you also have less chances to be interrupted .

Redeploy is more usefull if you play rifleman, and try to follow a wb/group to engage faster.
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Glorian
Posts: 4360

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#13 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:28 am

footpatrol2 wrote:Ok this is a long post I'll put things in spoilers.

The main argument that karast states is that the engineer needs to be more mobile. It does not need to be more mobile. In the spoiler below I go into what kind of support a engineer needs to not be more mobile. It is a entire play style.
Spoiler:
The engineer/magus probably need the most group support out of all the classes.

What is the group support you need?
You need to have comms.
You need a guard.
You need a healer that is tough enough to take a lot of damage. This could be be a warrior priest or a runepriest that is heavily defensively built ideally using the regenerative shielding tactic if your opposition is heavy physical damage or using Ancestor's echo tactic or both. The runepriest should probably have concussive runes tactic slotted also. Both of these healers benefit from this stationary play style.
You need to have your healer and tank stand next to you so your tank can easily switch guard if it is needed and not have to chase down your healers to save them. AM healers are not ideal.
You need to have tanks that know how to cycle challenge shout and maintain it on high dps targets.
You need to have really good tanks that know how to switch guard.
You need to have tanks willing to switch to SnB if the ranged threat is high enough and a mechanism to permanently hold the line if the situation calls for it.

Slot in your morale 2 armored plating as a clutch morale save. Incorrect morale gain rates screw with this.

Gear appropriately. This means if your dieing a lot you might need to go more defensive. If you gear defensively you can probably survive with a floated guard. If you gear offensively you'll probably need a dedicated guard. You can also go hybrid.

Max out your deft defender.

Get a complimentary dps that isn't terribly squishy to stand next to you that can assist along with a tank and ideally 2nd defensive style healer either another WP or another runepriest.

Get a couple of group AP feeds to help you pump out even more damage. Extra ammo and lasting chaos tactic is perfect for this or the AP feed runes/rituals or ap feed aura's.

What is this doing? Your building a group that is in support of your engineer. Your building a group that is stationary.

The class is a area denial class. The class is designed to hold BO's and fight at choke points and fight in open area's. The class is about pre-planning and set up. Set up your turret on the position you want to defend. If you can't set up your turret because there is too much enemy at your desired location set it up in a location that is safe. Build turret bonuses and creep summon your turret into the new location. You want to grind into the desired location without separating your group.

When the group moves. Move it as a tight nit cluster. So tight that everyone is within 20ft of one centric player. The entire group is leashed to the engineer's turret so the group only moves every 20 sec's. Its a stationary playstyle but a hyper defensive one. There are SOOO many additional benefits to this style of play over multiple different classes but I'm not going into that because that requries me to write more.

If you have access to a defensive morale cycle use it. This play style is highly rewarded for it.

Park the group on desirable locations or creep the group in to the desirable location.
What are desirable locations?
Any BO in the ORvR lakes.
Any chokepoint in ORvR.
Flag in doomfist SC/isha SC/Fortress flag in nordland
Flag in caledor woods sc/Gate switch in gates of ekrund
Keg spawn point in talebec damn
Key strategic spawn points of desirable objects
Flag spawn point in stonetroll's crossing
Part spawn point in serpents passage
Your own flag in phoenix gate/khaine's embrace
hold the murder ball and park your group on him in mourkain temple/tor anroc/Maw of madness.
Lots more stuff I could list.

Play objective based pvp. Focus on the objective and not kills. Have the discipline to not chase kills that will break your cluster. You are safe in your cluster.

I have video if you want me to show it. It is not of the ideal makeup thou.

Why did I write this the way that I did?
I wrote this out like this because it is a series of nuance points built on top of other nuance points. I still probably didn't do a good job at explanation. I could go into SOO much more depth. It is a entire play style.


You don't need to slot those tactic's if you have this kind of group support. They are not mandatory because your changing the play style and not participating in the kiting meta. You outlast and grind and use the objectives to gain victory. The class is not designed to participate in the kiting meta.

I'm not proposing a solution because I don't think anything needs to be changed. No disrespect to karast but I don't think there is a issue here.
Your Sollution is simply to find a group and teach/tell them to support your proposed playstyle. Then you say it is not mandatory to use the tactic.

If it were that easy you can say that each class need no changes as you simply need to tell the group to adept.

But I'm with you and Grunbag on the point that the Engi is not part of the kiting meta.
He gets a bonus by standing on his turret. And that is a big bonus for standing still for quite some time and be a target.

Karast's Balance propose is the idea to reduce cast times for faster on the move (1) or instant cast (2) but with an increased cast cooldown.

Both lead imo to an turret spam. Sure CD is higher but I have different turrets. So I can recast fresh ones with full wounds very fast.

So my Idea was to change the redeploy abbility for free and let the tactics stay as they are.
With an Improved redeploy you don't get fresh turrets but your current one to your position. You still need to move in small hops like you do currently.
But currently the redeploy CD is currently on 20secs. And some SCs are lost in that time. ;)
If the CD is reduced to 10secs the Engi can hop every 10secs instead of every 20secs.

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Grunbag
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Posts: 1641

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#14 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:33 am

Ah ok you mean having the redeploy cost 0ap , and make well oiled machine tactic still insta cast turret and reduce CD ?
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Glorian
Posts: 4360

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#15 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:39 am

Grunbag wrote:Ah ok you mean having the redeploy cost 0ap , and make redeploy tactic still insta cast turret and reduce CD ?
My Counter proposal to proposal on page 1:

Change Ability 'Redeploy' Cooldown from 20s to 10s. No change in Redeploy AP costs.

Also make sure Tactic 'Well oiled machine' that Redeploy costs are reduced to 0AP as tooltips say it already should has.

Edit: But I'm not sure that this is covered by the balance discussion proposal to give a counter proposal. But the basic problem Karast has described remains.
Last edited by Glorian on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1063

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#16 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:42 am

I don't think there would be a problem with the redeploy costing 0 ap. There really isn't a issue with AP if you have enough ap feeds in the group.

I disagree with a base CD reduction of 20 sec's to 10 sec's.

Now if you want well oiled machine tactic to reduce the CD also of redeploy and you get instant cast turrets. Sure.

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TheSockPuppet
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#17 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:14 pm

I disagree, those two tactics aren't really "must have" slots, but rather BiS, i have seen several magi (who were not quite "initiated" into the more "arcane" aspects of our profession, but still good players nonetheless) who managed to successfully commit their function without the tactic and one in particular who managed to consistently commit double/triple(fluff) damage with the same kb ratio as an "orthodox" spec magus in scenarios by going full path of change (That includes speccing into seed of chaos and dissolving mist), replacing the tactic in question with "Devour Energy" and placing a flamer in tactical locations to overcome the "handicap".

Furthermore, just as the bw/sorc have to sacrifice survivability to reach their full (and immense) damage potential, so too must the magus/engie sacrifice their mobility to do the same. And just as skilled bw/sorc learn to overcome their drawback by "knowing when to fold them", so too must the magus/engie overcome their drawback by learning to place their demons/turrets in the right spots. This makes us a somewhat "unique" rdps class and lessening the impact of our mechanic is going to chip away at our "uniqueness" until we turn into generic rdpstron 9000.

However, i while i disagree with Karast, i have to agree somewhat with Glorian on reducing the cost of the relocation, it's a very important magus/engie skill, especially for those who do not use the above mentioned tactics at a reasonable 20 second cooldown, but at a very steep cost at 60 AP, that's 5 points more than the cost of constructing the demon itself, and it's one of the most expensive abilities in the game, and due to the fact it's usually cast on the later stages of a fight, it tends to punch the air out of the lungs (If, they have enough "air" at this point to begin with) of a magus/engie if he wants to use it. While one may argue that the skill itself opposes the stationary/"defencive" gameplay of the magus/engie, i say that it's cooldown is already a proper "balancer" and that the game is, after all, very mobility-based and such a skill adds some flexibility to alleviate our limitation at pivotal moments. Thus, there is no need to further penalise the people who choose to use suboptimal tactics and i believe that a 10-20 point cut would be enough to make this skill, and by extention the builds that don't use the optimal tactics, more viable.
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Karast
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#18 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:57 pm

I can see there are a lot of negative opinions on my proposed changes, and I can understand some of the arguments, but I cannot see how anyone can claim that either going CQ or WOM are not mandatory in any 6v6 build.

Is there anyone who could give a more detailed argument on why they are not mandatory in a premade situation. 2s is a long time to waste on a cast to only have then have to wait for the mechanic to build. There are very few point defense scenarios where you can be 100% immobile, and in those situations other rdps preform just as well if not better than engi / magus do with less lead time and setup.

Every fight is not going to be one where you have had 20s to setup and wait for the enemy, especially in a 6v6 where the enemy is not just going to let you stand around. Mobility is survivability in this game.

Also it is not possible to spam turrets even on instant cast. The AP requirement kills this, and re-spawning ruins your upgrades.

This is merely a quality of life fix for a clunky mechanic. It would turn a 20s setup into an 18s setup, and give much needed tactic space to tactic starved careers.

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Gerv
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#19 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:43 pm

A summary so the discussion is not driven off topic:

Karast is not trying to re-create the class, he is proposing solutions which will add viability to a scale of combat where the engineer/Magus have little current place. Do not think only of RvR and classes having one style of game play.
Options to still consider:

a) Reduce the cast time on turrets / daemons to 1s, and allow them to be casted on the move while increasing the CD on Turrets/demon cast. This would allow turrets and daemon placement to be more mobile, while keeping the current tactics useful, but not mandatory.
- provides more mobility with damage and AP draw backs
- reducing the reliance on 2 tactics, does not nesecitate "Well Oiled Machine" for Instant cast
- points made concerning that this could lead to fresh turret spam with full wounds
- counter to this, pointed out that stack loss leads to less damage output + large AP costs

b) reduce the CD on redeploy to 10 seconds and ensure that "Well oiled machine" is working as the tooltip describes.
b.2) adjust "Well Oiled Machine" tactic to reduce the CD of redeploy to 10 seconds and allows turrets to be instantly built"
- increases class mobility by allowing more rapid redeploying
- Still requires slotting of "Well Oiled Machine"
- reduces reliance on Expert Skirmisher due to instant cast however loose all stacks and damage output
- counter point that Expert Skirmisher is still useful for other play styles - tinker
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Tankbeardz
Posts: 551

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#20 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:44 pm

Karast wrote:I can see there are a lot of negative opinions on my proposed changes, and I can understand some of the arguments, but I cannot see how anyone can claim that either going CQ or WOM are not mandatory in any 6v6 build.

Is there anyone who could give a more detailed argument on why they are not mandatory in a premade situation. 2s is a long time to waste on a cast to only have then have to wait for the mechanic to build. There are very few point defense scenarios where you can be 100% immobile, and in those situations other rdps preform just as well if not better than engi / magus do with less lead time and setup.

Every fight is not going to be one where you have had 20s to setup and wait for the enemy, especially in a 6v6 where the enemy is not just going to let you stand around. Mobility is survivability in this game.

Also it is not possible to spam turrets even on instant cast. The AP requirement kills this, and re-spawning ruins your upgrades.

This is merely a quality of life fix for a clunky mechanic. It would turn a 20s setup into an 18s setup, and give much needed tactic space to tactic starved careers.
Spoiler:
I agree with most of Karast's opinions. What is it with this whole "stationary" dps mindset? Battles aren't stationary.
Issues with post:
- Not positively contributing to the discussion as per this guideline/rule "The role of those responding to a topic is to reinforce or debunk the original poster's analysis of the issue and his proposed solution." - Azarael, furthermore we are not entertaining plus one posts.
- Comments were made by others regarding the stationary dps mindset, your failure not to read or ignore such comments and respond constructively is not a privilege.

Any issues, PM myself or Natherul
-Gerv

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