[Engi / Magus] Pet Spawning

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Karast
Posts: 552

[Engi / Magus] Pet Spawning

Post#1 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:55 am

This is a proposal for a quality of life change for engineer and magus.

For those that are not very familiar with the classes I will briefly explain the root issue which this proposal is designed to address.

The engi / magus mechanic is based around our turret / daemon pets. These three different types of daemons and turrets provide differing buffs depending on the turret that build over time. To gain access to these buffs an engi / magus has to stay within a fixed range.

Turrets / Daemons have a 55AP cost to summon. The summoning is a 2s cast, and it has a 5s cooldown.

To make use of their mechanic Engis / Magi need to keep their turret and daemons close. This can often be done with a core ability called redeploy which moves and existing daemon / turret close to you. This core ability, however is often not enough. RoR is a very mobile game, and even in the best of defensive positions engi / magus are often forced to stay mobile, to defensively kite, or to chase enemy kiters. It is very rare to be able to sit around for a long period of time in a group setting, and once forced to move Engi / Magus are at a real disadvantage once redeploy is on cooldown.

The two second summon is always an issue when it comes to setup time. The turret / daemon buffs take time to build on their own, when added to the two seconds at a start of a fight it means there is a lot of dead time before an engi / magus can do their maximum, and it makes the mechanic very clunky in comparison. Mechanics like grudge, and combustion are also building mechanics, but they do not require a two second cast to activate.

Because of the need to be mobile, and to reduce setup time two tactics have become a core part of almost every build. Well-oiled Machine / Chaotic Attunement (makes turret / daemon summons instant and reduces redeploy cost) and Expert Skirmisher / Close Quarters (reduces cast times by 50% if 20ft from an enemy * can self target for 1s daemon turret cast)

These two tactics are nearly core to every build and running without them amounts to a huge handicap in all forms of play.

Having must slot tactics is a serious problem for engi / magus. It stifles our tactic choice, and limits what we can bring. There are a lot of interesting and potentially useful tactic builds that never see the light of day because we simply have too many must slots.

To address the mobility and tactic issues, I have two potential suggestions that have been circulated on the forums for a long time within the engi / magus communities:

1. Reduce the cast time on turrets / daemons to 1s, and allow them to be casted on the move. This would allow turrets and daemon placement to be more mobile, while keeping the current tactics useful, but not mandatory.

2. Make all turrets / daemons instant cast, and then change Well-oiled Machine / Chaotic Attunement to reduce turret / daemon AP cost or perhaps to provide additional range to turret / daemon buff ranges.

To balance out these perspective changes and to prevent turret / daemon spam. The cooldown on turrets and daemons could be doubled from 5 to 10s.

In terms of overall balance these two suggestions would allow for move varied tactic choice, and a smoother overall mechanic system to complement the recent improvements.

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Gerv
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#2 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:35 am

Moving to Discussions

Remember to follow the guidelines for responding posted here viewtopic.php?f=96&t=11105

"The role of those responding to a topic is to reinforce or debunk the original poster's analysis of the issue and his proposed solution. Thus, broadly the same rules apply as to topic starters. Analysis of the topic starter's post must be thorough, and any solutions posted by responders which compete with the topic starter's proposed solution must be soundly based around resolving the issue in question.

When responding, be sure to use facts and support your reasoning rather than relying on the strength of your own reputation to support your post, no matter how good a player you may be."

**For this topic,
a) disprove why the given issues are not important - the issue of mobility (2 second summon time adds to dead time where engineer and magus do not deliver full dps in a mobile rapidly change PvP environment) - current implementation necessitates 2 core tactics (reducing build options)
b) Explain why the proposed solutions do not address the issues or create further class imbalances at a minimum of 6v6 scale play and propose other solutions
c) agree with and reinforce the issues and proposed solutions
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#3 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:39 am

Agreed.

Having to waste a tactic slot as a Magus (when you have so many good ones to choose from), just to alleviate the clunkiness that is the pet mechanic, doesn't make sense, and is indicative of bad design more than anything else.

As it stands now, if you want to keep up with other RDPS in fast-paced environments, you absolutely need the tactic - which means you give up either extended range, crit, or group utility via the 15% dmg. Without the tactic, if you attempt to maximise DPS potential (as you should be), you will find yourself spending a lot of GCDs casting the pet every 20/30ft.

Though it hasn't really ever been an issue for me, and I'd dare say a lot of Magi who have just got used to it, why should the class have to slot a tactic just to make the mechanic less cumbersome? It is already intricate enough as it is (having a stationary pet, needed for dmg otherwise we hit like wet noodle, have to stay in X range while other classes can move freely)

I would go for making the pets 1-second casts, but castable on the move, or just stick with your 1st proposal. Tactic should be done away with, imo.
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Grunbag
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#4 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:06 am

I don't think engi / magus need to be mobile, or chase kiters, in a 6v6 group this is not their role. They're designed as static rdps that's why azarael give us all those turret buff . Giving us the possibility to cast on the move , being more mobile or competitive with kiters class would make us really powerfull as long as we have such turret buff .

The weakness of actual engineer is lack of mobility, if we have to disengage or being pushed back it starting to be hard for us. By solving our static "issue", players will ask why we still have those great turret buff if we have enough tool for being mobile ? I'm afraid by making engineer more and more mobile , turret buff would be changed/decrease.

Before the up , we were more "mobile" (no stack lose when resummon) and that didn't made us better than now . We already have a counter part to prevent deploy pet abusive is the stack lose. As soon as you leave your turret buff range to get to your new place , stack starting decrease , so when you get to your new place you're usually between 6 and 4 stack left. Summoning a new turret automatically drop you to 0/2 stack at this moment.

Engineer not only use expert skirmisher for reduce turret cast time but also for reducing keg and abilities Castime for having a more dynamic gameplay .
This tactic is actually really attractive because of all of this . Engineer will still slot this tactic even if turret castime is reduced to 1s, so it won't solve the tactic problem.

Actually we don't have to slot 2 core tactic , but we have to chose between 2 core tactic for turret cast time.

Your idea of changing redeploy Is better, if engineer looking for more "mobility" they must slot redeploy tactic , And maybe add 0ap cost for turret redeploy tactic would be enough to solve the problem.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1065

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#5 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:33 am

Spoiler:
Karast wrote: RoR is a very mobile game, and even in the best of defensive positions engi / magus are often forced to stay mobile

This is a false statement. You do not have to stay mobile if you have enough group support. You can make a very nasty defensive group.
Karast wrote: Because of the need to be mobile.
False statement.

I never run those two tactics because they are a waste of a tactic slot. I can see you having to run those two tactics if your die hard trying to make a class that isn't designed to participate in the kiting meta to participate in the kiting meta. I might run close quarters/expert skirmisher not for the quick pet casts but for the fast casts on grenadier/changing spec's.

I never require engineer's/magus's to run those two tactics because I change the playstyle of the group where you don't need to participate in the kiting meta. The entire group is leashed to the engineer/magus mechanic. Engineer/Magus are showcase players. You build your group composition around them. If you don't build your group around the mechanic of engineer/magus players then your not getting the most out of the class. The engineer/magus are not support classes. They are showcase classes.
Issues with this post:
a) You don't explain what group support is required to enable the engineer class to "not stay mobile" or explain/provide evidence to support the concept of "showcase players"
b) You are not following the given guidelines on this point here: When responding, be sure to use facts and support your reasoning rather than relying on the strength of your own reputation to support your post, no matter how good a player you may be.
c) You are cherry-picking Karast's OP instead of responding to the entire post by debunking the issues/proposed solutions or proposing alternatives.
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Glorian
Posts: 4369

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#6 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:05 am

Grunbag wrote:..

Actually we don't have to slot 2 core tactic , but we have to chose between 2 core tactic for turret cast time.

Your idea of changing redeploy Is better, if engineer looking for more "mobility" they must slot redeploy tactic , And maybe add 0ap cost for turret redeploy tactic would be enough to solve the problem.
I agree with Grunbag.
You don't slot both tactics but usually one of both.
And one of them is a MUST imo.
Because without the Turret you can't really do any significant damage.

If you are a Sniper/Grenadier you usually take instacast turret. -> You arent a Squig Herder, but you need to keep up the speed of the Warband.
If you are a Tinkerer you take the reduced cast times, as this also helps in bringing Keg and Rod up.

Sollution:
I'm not there fullywith Grunbag.
My idea would be to Change the core Redeploy Ability to 0AP and make it on a 5 or 10 sec Cooldown from its current 20 secs.
The Careerbuilder says it is on 0AP costs already, but ingame it is 60AP.

With that both Tactics could still be usefull if you want to upgrade that mobility even further.
Also you dont get a "fresh" turret but your used ones. If he had some damage in the fights you need to stop and fetch a new one.

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Grunbag
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#7 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:27 am

I am agreed , I forgot to mention a reduction of redeploy CD , that something I was thinking about too .

Redeploy tactic would allowed to you insta cast turret with 0ap cost (or 50% less ap) and reducing redeploy CD to 10 sec (50% Cd reduce)

But it still have to spec for it with a tactic slot. It will allowed magus/engi to follow wb as glorian said, but it don't have to be given for "free".
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Glorian
Posts: 4369

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#8 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:37 am

Grunbag wrote:I am agreed , I forgot to mention a reduction of redeploy CD , that something I was thinking about too .
Redeploy tactic would allowed to you insta cast turret with 0ap cost (or 50% less ap) and reducing redeploy CD to 10 sec (50% Cd reduce)
But it still have to spec for it with a tactic slot. It will allowed magus/engi to follow wb as glorian said, but it don't have to be given for "free".
I'm more on the "free" side. :D

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Grunbag
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Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#9 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:38 am

Glorian wrote:
Grunbag wrote:I am agreed , I forgot to mention a reduction of redeploy CD , that something I was thinking about too .
Redeploy tactic would allowed to you insta cast turret with 0ap cost (or 50% less ap) and reducing redeploy CD to 10 sec (50% Cd reduce)
But it still have to spec for it with a tactic slot. It will allowed magus/engi to follow wb as glorian said, but it don't have to be given for "free".
I'm more on the "free" side. :D
You mean , you want turret being insta cast without any tactic ?
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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7rere7
Posts: 166

Re: [Engi / Magus] Turret / Daemon spawning mechanic

Post#10 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:00 am

Spoiler:
I think buff stacks should apply a little bit farther out when magus/engineer move away from them.

Casting pet on the move would be nice .

Maybe a tactic that gives 4 stacks whenever turret /pet is casted.

The reduced range to 60 ft path of Havoc and Riffleman is the problem .
Issues with post:
a) fails to disprove why the given issues are not important - the issue of mobility (2 second summon time adds to dead time where engineer and magus do not deliver full dps in a mobile rapidly change PvP environment) - current implementation necessitates 2 core tactics (reducing build options)
b) fails to explain why the proposed solutions do not address the issues or create further class imbalances at a minimum of 6v6 scale play and propose other solutions
c) fails to agree with and reinforce the issues and proposed solutions
d) posts on unwarranted tangents with no link to the discussion

Gerv

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