[Rejected] Proc meta

[Ktana]

You missattribute low damage on tanks to defensive spec where it's caused by the lack of an armour debuff with DoK+Sorc against a slayer with 75% physical damage mitigation.

Your "offensive" bork has bugged character with no armour debuff ability? That's unfortunate.

This amuses me how defensive some people from one group can be about obviously not intended things (defensive chosens damages more than AOE slayer; ability to kill guarded defensive chosen with 2 healers in the group (we were fighting Teinhala's premade with our proc setup one day, chosen from his party used his M4 and we were able to kill him from 100% HP); dumbed down gameplay that comes from insane out of nothing damage; etc etc)

Anyways, i have already said my point severeal times and i have no intention anymore to repeat my point again and again to people who are interested to save proc meta.

[Aranael]

Having balanced procs in the game allows more group compositions into a competitive meta. Having procs with an ICD doesn't allow those compositions whatsoever because it would reduce proc damage so drastically they would become absolutely irrelevant and not worth using a BW for. I don't disagree that in their current implementation and the state of the game procs are too strong. However there are other things that are also too strong in the same regard (armour/hp debuffs). Don't you think it's cheesy a Mara/WL can remove all the base armour of a light armour class with a single key press? You say there isn't a risk/reward. There is. A fully defensively speced BW with 0% chance to be crit, full armour talismans and 7k+ health with guard still dies like a fly against high damage output destruction setups (yes thsoe can exist even without sorc procs), by comparison a Slayer who isn't speced fully defensive can just stand there and take it against the very same setup. So there is substantial risk to running a Sorc/BW in any group.

Your whole pro arguments and posts are based on the argument "the proc meta allows more group compositions". But do you honestly think the main reason for having a bright wizard within a group is to buff the damage output of others - especially tanks - to an abnormal level while he goes full defensive himself. Ever thought about why bright wizards do wear low armor and have such an insane damage mechanic? Maybe because he is designed to be a main dps himself and don't buff the damage of defensive oriented tanks to a era in which they can compete with an ID specced slayer - certain scenarios on youtube shows how your slayer is outdamaged by tanks while the bw dealt the least or just a bit more damage than the kotbs. Is that really how a bright wizard should work? i have my concerns.

I also don't get how a 1.5s ICD would make them useless. let's say FoR will deal 120 damage on a guarded target: 4x120=480 free damage every 1.5s from procs. Considering that the base HP should be around 5.5k for dps classes that results in 8,72% of their total hp pool almost every 1.5s. how can this be called "useless"? and honestly i think the average dmg will be above 120 so it will be more most of the time.

[zumos2]

Your whole pro arguments and posts are based on the argument "the proc meta allows more group compositions". But do you honestly think the main reason for having a bright wizard within a group is to buff the damage output of others - especially tanks - to an abnormal level while he goes full defensive himself. Ever thought about why bright wizards do wear low armor and have such an insane damage mechanic? Maybe because he is designed to be a main dps himself and don't buff the damage of defensive oriented tanks to a era in which they can compete with an ID specced slayer - certain scenarios on youtube shows how your slayer is outdamaged by tanks while the bw dealt the least or just a bit more damage than the kotbs. Is that really how a bright wizard should work? i have my concerns.

I also don't get how a 1.5s ICD would make them useless. let's say FoR will deal 120 damage on a guarded target: 4x120=480 free damage every 1.5s from procs. Considering that the base HP should be around 5.5k for dps classes that results in 8,72% of their total hp pool almost every 1.5s. how can this be called "useless"? and honestly i think the average dmg will be above 120 so it will be more most of the time.

1 There are more arguments in favor of procs.
2 You quote the fact that the proc meta allows more group compositions, but don't bring anything against it.
3 Why should there only be one way to play a certain class like a BW/Sorc. Why is it wrong to be creative and play a more defensive style and buffing your group. Why do you think they have the proc chance increase tactic anyway? Why does Sorc have an absorb shield on proc tactic? It is not because the most standard way to play BW/Sorc is full offensive trying to blow people up with a simple burst rotation, that there are no other ways allowed to play a class.
4 The internal cooldown would make the proc chance tactic useless and would be unlogical because it goes against what the tactic does: Increase proc chance by 50% (for a total of 75%). The whole idea is with such a high proc chance would be that it can proc more than once every global cooldown. If you remove that fact, the tactic simply doesn't work anymore as intendent. Way more logical is purely nerfing damage would be to reduce the damage it does or decrease the extra proc chance of the tactic. But please read my post how I feel about that and other solutions.

[zumos2]

Anyways, i have already said my point severeal times and i have no intention anymore to repeat my point again and again to people who are interested to save proc meta.

Sadly the only solution you give is adding an internal cooldown without much reasoning why that would be the best solution other then the notion of how OP you think the procs are. You neither responded to other possible solutions so you can repeat your point over and over again - which we already put arguments against - or you can be constructive and think together to come up with smart solutions.

[roadkillrobin]

Proc builds are designed by Mythic to take down classes with high toughness. Always was.
In a meta with alot of proc builds running around spec for Wound/Ressistance/Armor instead of Toughness. Problem solved. There shouldn't be one build thats good against every group composition. That creatues really bad game dynamics.

[Eathisword]

Proc builds are designed by Mythic to take down classes with high toughness. Always was.
In a meta with alot of proc builds running around spec for Wound/Ressistance/Armor instead of Toughness. Problem solved. There shouldn't be one build thats good against every group composition. That creatues really bad game dynamics.

If it was possible to spec resist in any way above 50% mitigation, I would agree with you. As it stands now, the diminishing return you get from softcap (and everyone is softcapped with a knight/IB/resist talis or pot) makes stacking it to a more meaningful level nearly impossible. Your conception of the game would be great if resist could be softcap at 60%+ to be somewhat equivalent to armor, at least from a tank perspective.

Otoh, armor is probably too easy to over cap (5k+) for too many classes, although the damage reduction is capped at 70 or 75% (3400-3500).

I have no problem with proc doing tons of damage to a dps. It bugs me when it melts a def tank that is using most of his available resources trying not to be a valid target.

[roadkillrobin]

There's also this thing called Block wich if it happens doesn't proc anything else either.

[Danielle]

You missattribute low damage on tanks to defensive spec where it's caused by the lack of an armour debuff with DoK+Sorc against a slayer with 75% physical damage mitigation.

Your "offensive" bork has bugged character with no armour debuff ability? That's unfortunate.

Depending on the BOrcs spec and the slayer spec, the BOrc debuff won't put the slayer (If the slayer is purposefully overstacking armour) below 75% physical mitigation, where a WL/Mara armour debuff in a standard build would. Given that you likely mostly play against Mara groups which have a stronger armour debuff that might be one of the reasons you are seeing a difference in the BOrc damage from mitigation. Compare the numbers with a different Black Orc pre-mitigation and come and discuss again.

I don't like your argument for ICDs because there is no rationalization behind it. The numbers people in this thread come up with seem arbitrary to me. Don't get me wrong proc damage is over the top. But by how much? Is it by 5%, is it by 10% is it by 15% is it by 30%? What is the actual dps from procs? How much does that dps need to be reduced by to make it balanced? That's what the needed information is for making a rational ICD or dps decrease. Which procs are actually overpowered? Is it all of them? Is it the BW/Sorc proc tactic? We are just being highly unspecific here. Generaly all I can see is "I hate procs, remove them from the game and don't bother me with proc groups again".

I am trying to say "I hate procs, remove them from the game and don't bother me with proc groups again." is not a good way to balance the game, because it removes some interesting class synergies that don't otherwise exist. Anyway hopefully some good groups will likely bring procs to the 6v6 event and we can get some 'unbugged' proc damage data from that.

I would encourage that a proc nerf be discussed in terms of a percentage damage decrease; whether that is implemented through and ICD or nerfing specific abilities/tacitcs damage can be discussed on a separate note.

[dur3al]

I believe an ICD would be a good solution, 1.5s or so to be honest, the fact that it will make no sense to stack AA etc doesn't really hold out true to be because the proc chance is not 100% so high AA and hits in general would still benefit even with the ICD.

If you're talking about nerfing damage, from what I've seen I'd start with a something between 30% - 50% damage nerf.

I'd still like to know if its possible to have a small nerf damage + scale according to offensive stats such as strength/intelligence and they'd still be able to be mitigated also by toughness.

[Bozzax]

How you guys feel regarding dropping procs from anything but used abilities dd, main hand aa, and channel ticks?

This would pretty much gimp the extremest proc setups and cheese DW, DE, ID and possibly be a simple but reasonable solution?