[Rejected] Proc meta

[dur3al]

I'm not sure if I should go on lengths here about what I think it is right or not, but obviously something to be discussed for some actions to be taken, with a lot of arguments for both sides at the Proc Meta thread.

I suppose it might be interesting to highlight what was discussed previously so far:

Here's a rundown of the procs you get in these groups

Destro
HealDoK: Celerity and Vitality, both running Potent Covenants tactic (35% chance to proc), and the one running Celerity picks up Bloodthrist tactic (increased damage).
Sorc: Frozen Touch, with Frozen Fury tactic (75% proc chance).

Order
WP: Prayer of Righteousness with Divine Justice tactic (increased damage).
BW: Flames of Ruin with Crown of Fire tactic(75% chance), and Fueled from Within tactic (increased damage).

The numbers before mitigation:
Order:
20% chance to deal 275 spirit damage on hit (55 dmg)
75% chance to deal 324 ele damage on hit (243 dmg)
~298 damage per hit total

Destro:
35% chance to deal 270 spirit damage on hit (94 dmg)
35% chance to deal 150 spirit damage on hit (53 dmg)
75% chance to deal 210 corp damage on hit (157.5 dmg)
~304.5 damage per hit total


These numbers approach tooltip damage for spammable abilities that defensive spec tanks would have, obviously because this damage does not scale with things like crit, or % increased damage modifiers it greatly effects your tanks DPS output more so than your DPS, but it is still a major DPS boost all around.

1) There is hard evidence to demonstrate that these proc abilities had no internal cool-down on live. But a lot of things were different on live, such as gear/stats etc.

2) Wouldn't consider shattering enchantments really a counter to it since it could be used effectively for only order, and with latest changes not even that anymore - considering that reapplying buffs are instantly.

3) Some evidence of procs proccing other procs such as Skull Thumper adding even more to the damage output - which is already fixed according to Zumos. To be seen if others still do similar effects, such as Shinning Blade & Devour Essence etc.

Tell me more about skill xD

01:59:01 => from texi's skull thumper :
AA critical hit procing cov vitality + cov celerity + frozen touch + skull thumper + war below dmg (loudmouth) procing cov celerity + frozen touch

-/-

There's also been some suggestions on how to deal with this issue such as:

1) Look into proc rate - tactics which increase proc rate;
2) Add an internal cool-down on the procs;
3) Reduce damage - tactics that increase damage on procs;
4) Make procs not stack-able;

Cheers,

[Azarael]

Opening for discussion.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

So I don't want to be laughed off here and I'm not trying to derail but I think what has happened is that the community has tapped into some of the racial synergy that Empire and Dark elves have at thier disposal. The heavy lifting that is conducted by the proc meta is based on those races.

Instead of gutting the racial synergy make it so DE proc buff's don't stack with other classes besides DE classes. For example: Make DE covenants not stack with greenskin or chaos faction players. Those non DE classes don't get the ability to proc those covenants.

Another example: Skull thumper can only be triggered by greenskin classes. No other races are able to trigger skull thumper. Stuff like that.

If you separate this stuff then the impact won't be so bad and it will still maintain the original racial synergy. I'd hate to see racial synergy get gutted even more by mixed group exploits.

Warning issued. Racial warbands / synergy based post in balance forums. This forum is for serious, targeted solutions to the problem at hand, not advancing your agenda - Azarael

[Miszczu5647]

Adding internal cooldown on the proc is way to go IMO. Look at the Witchbrew. Without internal cooldown it was insanely good. Now it is very strong but not overpowered skill. This solutions will change proc from main source of dmg into very solid addition to damage from skills. And won't melt targets in few seconds. Judging from a previous discussions that is a main problem.

[Toldavf]

My only 3 solutions to it would be an internal cool down on the skill, an external cool down so no matter how many people hit you only 1 flames of ruin can hit you within a time period or only one proc per successful hit. Of the three i prefer the 2nd as it will have the desired affect while not completely gimping procs for aoe.

[Karast]

My only 3 solutions to it would be an internal cool down on the skill, an external cool down so no matter how many people hit you only 1 flames of ruin can hit you within a time period or only one proc per successful hit. Of the three i prefer the 2nd as it will have the desired affect while not completely gimping procs for aoe.

I agree.

Having an external cool-down as in the procs can only proc every 2-3s, but that they can proc off of aoe is a good way to do it.

It puts an end to the crazy proc's we get at the moment, but still keeps procs useful.

[dontcomplainx]

My only 3 solutions to it would be an internal cool down on the skill, an external cool down so no matter how many people hit you only 1 flames of ruin can hit you within a time period or only one proc per successful hit. Of the three i prefer the 2nd as it will have the desired affect while not completely gimping procs for aoe.

I agree.

Having an external cool-down as in the procs can only proc every 2-3s, but that they can proc off of aoe is a good way to do it.

It puts an end to the crazy proc's we get at the moment, but still keeps procs useful.

3 secs is ok

[Jaycub]

Would it be at all possible to change proc damage to a DoT if it procs more than say 1 times a second?

For instance lets say you got hit with FoR 4 times in 1 second you instead take 1 instance of damage immediately than receive a hex that can stack up to X times that deals a FoR potion of damage every 1 sec, in this case it would a 3 second long dot that can be further stacked upon, losing a stack every second. This limits the DPS you are able to take from procs, but overtime doesn't reduce the actual damage from before.

Just a thought as an alternative to ICD, sort of inspired by how PoE handles their lifesteal mechanics.

[dur3al]

1) There is hard evidence to demonstrate that these proc abilities had no internal cool-down on live. But a lot of things were different on live, such as gear/stats etc.

What hard evidence?

Taken from the main thread what the discussion started:

From having played quite extensively with procbuilds( i am talking now about bw/sorc procs):

I tried to find out how it worked on live , and it was very difficult finding an appropriate video of a mdps using the proc with proper ui visibility of its applications. The closest i found was this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJgheowSiE ( go to 2:19-2:20 and slow it down) - from this the icd(if it existed which i doubt) was lower then 1s- the sorc most likely didn't run the proc tactic in that video as it was hard to ever see it proc again in a consistent fashion. I would love it if someone has proper videos with visibility of how it worked.

Also i tried to find any patch notes referencing icd , but appart from damage increase/decrease and other mechanics no mentioning of ICD (still doesn't mean there was none)

It has balance implications tho (specifically related to the gear-state of the game and the non-scaling nature of procs) , and is quite powerful atm. , in a similar fashion that bs/st are . It does not make for very interactive gameplay but is different to normal meta and not undefeatable , depending on what kind of setup you are running.


Edit : As a matter of fact, i have just noticed that how in that video that i linked it proced off of a dot 2:52-2:53 (Yer all bleeding now) - which makes me even more curious how it actually worked...

And,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8frNMjpcw

press stop at 3:30

[16:27:23]Attack
[16:27:23]FoR
[16:27:23]Torment
[16:27:23]FoR

while i agree that this seems to be cheesy it is not a bug.

Dispite potato quality of the video I managed to see

[16:27:22]Attack
[16:27:22]FoR
[16:27:23]Torment
[16:27:23]FoR

wrong. even though the video has some quality issues you can clearly see that the attack was applied at 16:27:23

the timestamp of the attack looks exactly like the one of torment:


a more zoomed in version shows that the first hit is applied in s 23:


last but not least the WSCT behavior:


despite the fact that the combat text is not a 100% trustworthy and accurate, this is a behavior which only occurs if you are able to proc multiple procs in the same second. there is no 1s delay in WSCT.

no matter how hard you try to get an ICD for procs - which might be justified - it is still not a bug. i have no doubt that this adds a bit too much damage into the current stage of the game but it is something equal to the initiative debuff in T2 which fixed itself with the progress of the game (level / gear). i doubt that procs will stay that strong during the next gear updates of RoR. hence it might be justified to add a temporary ICD of 1 second to FoR and Covenants. in the long run though, i think it should get removed again as this setup forces your group to play with a bright wizard / sorc. having a range dps weakens your setup a lot compared to a full melee train. if a melee group is not able to kill a cc'd rdps, they obviously lack damage due to gear/player skill/whatsoever.

Perhaps not super "hard" evidence, but some evidence

[zumos2]

3) Some evidence of procs proccing other procs such as Skull Thumper adding even more to the damage output - which is already fixed according to Zumos. To be seen if others still do similar effects, such as Shinning Blade & Devour Essence etc.

I will give my opinion on this matter when I have some time to react. For now I can tell you that as far as I know all procs do now not proc other procs anymore. Abilities such as Skull Thumper and Shining Blade and tactics such as loudmouth don't proc procs anymore. Devour Essence does proc procs because it isn't a proc itself. AM ability Dissapating Energies should work in the same way.