[AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

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Telen
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#11 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:15 am

catholicism198 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:30 pm
The Shaman one is complete garbage. No one uses it, or would use it.
Yer a Weaklin' was far more useful than that m4.
Think more about Fist of Gork and them not being ranged.
Just need 3 more rr and I can make some Shaman proposals.
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lefze
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#12 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:31 am

Arbich wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:12 pm
Option 1 implemented.
What? really? cool, will test it tomorrow.
lefze wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:12 pm
Would really just prefer it to be 100ft targeted and have it affect all partymembers within 100ft. Seeing as this mainly could have a use in larger scale play, it needs to be castable on healers to be even slightly attractive because of other abilities present, and at the same time be able to benefit the party without requiring the caster to be suicidal.
Order healers have the runepriest rune for this. I would say destro has the superior AP-feed for melee dps, this moral somewhat balance this.
Tesq wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:22 pm
100 feet range feel way too safer for a m4 which build pretty fast, give a think about keep siege not just open fights...drop it on front line from above with no danger and all tanks gona die (no hold the line)
Good point, didn´t thought about this. Is this theorycrafting or actually happening? I think this would mostly hurt the blob, which is not a desirable playstyle in oRvR anyway.
I meant it needs to land on enemy healers, 50% increased cost has zero effect on a destro warband frontline that is even slightly trying.
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Telen
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#13 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:43 am

I dont think you should be able to drop a 50% increase on backlines from 100ft. Thats why I suggest make in friendly target pbaoe so you need someone there. Even at keeps someone needs to go out then.
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#14 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:57 am

It don't need to land on enemy healer to be effective.
If tank dont have ap for hold the line or the dps dor dmg enemys, heals wont save ya .

Zealot ritual is a nuff speech if it really any wanna bring it up, it's static mark on the ground as dissolving mist and have the same weakness, moreover if there is a problem how it give ap it should be deal on a balance thread for that skill.

I dont see a direct reason why this m4 not hit healers make it useless.

-Make it 65 feet range / work on group member
-make it 45 feets pbaoe / work on allies in that cone los.

N.B 30 feets are too few is still a caster with cloth, if 45 pbaoe are too few i suggest to try 65 feet pbaoe . 100 feet on the other hand is not a correct value as no aoe stuff in game can hit from 100 feet, ST stuff does.
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#15 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:34 am

Telen wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:43 am
I dont think you should be able to drop a 50% increase on backlines from 100ft. Thats why I suggest make in friendly target pbaoe so you need someone there. Even at keeps someone needs to go out then.
It has no use outside of that, and if you have a friendly in heal lines it basically means you won the engagement anyways.

The morale isn't problematic, and any slight improvement won't make it problematic or even attractive. Even blinding light is far superior.

@tesq yes, zeally ritual is a static mark, but with a massive range. During active fighting it's easy to get a 100% uptime on it. And certain tanks can proc the ritual for infinite AP even without toggling HTL off, while others can just drop a single ability to refresh AP. It is so effective that it negates any and all AP drains or increasers order has access to. And the kicker here is that a destro healer can drop one or two dots and benefit greatly from it aswell, and as such any argument made about runie ritual being kinda better for healers is only partially true. From what I heard any tweak was out of the question, the right people think the ritual is performing as it should.

Edit: forgot to mention, several utility/debuff targeted AoEs are 100ft. Blinding light which I mentioned being one of them. Keep in mind this morale does zero damage.
Last edited by lefze on Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#16 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:35 am

Debuffing whole enemy backline from safety and 100 feet is away is quite strong. Especially since if you get 2-3 AMs to rotate this...
I'd either say; 30 feet application range, then 30 feet effect area - or 65 feet application range 20 feet application area.
There has to be some risk involved in launching such a massive debuff that can result in quite effective AP starvation of large packs of enemies effectively taking them out from fight for a moderate time period.

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Kalt
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#17 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:43 am

100ft with 30 feet radius is too powerful.

I think 65 ft target and 20 feet pbaoe on your target is fine.

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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#18 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:47 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:35 am
Debuffing whole enemy backline from safety and 100 feet is away is quite strong. Especially since if you get 2-3 AMs to rotate this...
I'd either say; 30 feet application range, then 30 feet effect area - or 65 feet application range 20 feet application area.
There has to be some risk involved in launching such a massive debuff that can result in quite effective AP starvation of large packs of enemies effectively taking them out from fight for a moderate time period.
Is it such a massive debuff though? In reality it would still not get used, just like the SH 100ft -50% AP cost M1. I mean come on, compare the AM 15pt speccable M4 to this core M1, and tell me how letting this morale sine a bit brighter is a bad idea. Not to mention that it's on top of the lifetap tree.
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#19 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:51 am

lefze wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:34 am
Telen wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:43 am
I dont think you should be able to drop a 50% increase on backlines from 100ft. Thats why I suggest make in friendly target pbaoe so you need someone there. Even at keeps someone needs to go out then.
It has no use outside of that, and if you have a friendly in heal lines it basically means you won the engagement anyways.

The morale isn't problematic, and any slight improvement won't make it problematic or even attractive. Even blinding light is far superior.

@tesq yes, zeally ritual is a static mark, but with a massive range. During active fighting it's easy to get a 100% uptime on it. And certain tanks can proc the ritual for infinite AP even without toggling HTL off, while others can just drop a single ability to refresh AP. It is so effective that it negates any and all AP drains or increasers order has access to. And the kicker here is that a destro healer can drop one or two dots and benefit greatly from it aswell, and as such any argument made about runie ritual being kinda better for healers is only partially true. From what I heard any tweak was out of the question, the right people think the ritual is performing as it should.

Edit: forgot to mention, several utility/debuff targeted AoEs are 100ft. Blinding light which I mentioned being one of them. Keep in mind this morale does zero damage.
look my tought on zeal ritual is= should be mirror with rp in whatever way they are intended "both " to work but outside this shenanigans; for base, there is no reason a 50% ap cost increase is uselss generally speaking on anything, especially if aoe and "not cleanseable". Im pretty sure alredy are some form of ap management on both side and more will came in future i can bet; give this a 100 feet range seems like this ALONE m4 should cover for the balance of destru vs order ap management...thing is mroe things can stack on ap management / there is not a max value cap as for resistences or armor debuff; anything stack. You cant justify the lack of an ap management onto the enemy to enforce 1 single too good skill to cover for that. The stacking nature will make it too long in the long run.

There are diff tools in game which need to be use to controll enemy ap, all thos tool need to work togheter to some degree, just use m4 am instad of all of em dosent feel the right solution. PLus again i dont remeber aoe stuff to hit 100 feet afar....a middle way solution would be better ; exemple- a 65 feet pboe which reward am positioning and cant be exploited in keep siege.
targetted 100 feet is way to easy to us, pick mouse--> put cursor in mid of enemy heals--->random click 2-3 time in half second----> drop--->profit...
lefze wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:47 am
Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:35 am
Debuffing whole enemy backline from safety and 100 feet is away is quite strong. Especially since if you get 2-3 AMs to rotate this...
I'd either say; 30 feet application range, then 30 feet effect area - or 65 feet application range 20 feet application area.
There has to be some risk involved in launching such a massive debuff that can result in quite effective AP starvation of large packs of enemies effectively taking them out from fight for a moderate time period.
Is it such a massive debuff though? In reality it would still not get used, just like the SH 100ft -50% AP cost M1. I mean come on, compare the AM 15pt speccable M4 to this core M1, and tell me how letting this morale sine a bit brighter is a bad idea. Not to mention that it's on top of the lifetap tree.
buff are not strong as debuff in this case; if you can cover the whole ap regen with raw ap you dont need an ap cutter. Viceversa if you force onto the debuff this strong the use of the sh m1 you end like with slayer shatter limbs vs choppa /chopp fastapre BO change. You force enemy wb to take something becasue you cant play with out it since enemy screw you with the opposite debuff. Again there are A LOT of ap management source, make one that strong is not the right solution when they can all stack.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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lefze
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Re: [AM] Morale 4 Funnel Energy [Close Date: 28/8]

Post#20 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:19 am

Tesq wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:51 am
lefze wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:34 am
Telen wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:43 am
I dont think you should be able to drop a 50% increase on backlines from 100ft. Thats why I suggest make in friendly target pbaoe so you need someone there. Even at keeps someone needs to go out then.
It has no use outside of that, and if you have a friendly in heal lines it basically means you won the engagement anyways.

The morale isn't problematic, and any slight improvement won't make it problematic or even attractive. Even blinding light is far superior.

@tesq yes, zeally ritual is a static mark, but with a massive range. During active fighting it's easy to get a 100% uptime on it. And certain tanks can proc the ritual for infinite AP even without toggling HTL off, while others can just drop a single ability to refresh AP. It is so effective that it negates any and all AP drains or increasers order has access to. And the kicker here is that a destro healer can drop one or two dots and benefit greatly from it aswell, and as such any argument made about runie ritual being kinda better for healers is only partially true. From what I heard any tweak was out of the question, the right people think the ritual is performing as it should.

Edit: forgot to mention, several utility/debuff targeted AoEs are 100ft. Blinding light which I mentioned being one of them. Keep in mind this morale does zero damage.
look my tought on zeal ritual is= should be mirror with rp in whatever way they are intended "both " to work but outside this shenanigans; for base, there is no reason a 50% ap cost increase is uselss generally speaking on anything, especially if aoe and "not cleanseable". Im pretty sure alredy are some form of ap management on both side and more will came in future i can bet; give this a 100 feet range seems like this ALONE m4 should cover for the balance of destru vs order ap management...thing is mroe things can stack on ap management / there is not a max value cap as for resistences or armor debuff; anything stack. You cant justify the lack of an ap management onto the enemy to enforce 1 single too good skill to cover for that. The stacking nature will make it too long in the long run.

There are diff tools in game which need to be use to controll enemy ap, all thos tool need to work togheter to some degree, just use m4 am instad of all of em dosent feel the right solution. PLus again i dont remeber aoe stuff to hit 100 feet afar....a middle way solution would be better ; exemple- a 65 feet pboe which reward am positioning and cant be exploited in keep siege.
targetted 100 feet is way to easy to us, pick mouse--> put cursor in mid of enemy heals--->random click 2-3 time in half second----> drop--->profit...
lefze wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:47 am
Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:35 am
Debuffing whole enemy backline from safety and 100 feet is away is quite strong. Especially since if you get 2-3 AMs to rotate this...
I'd either say; 30 feet application range, then 30 feet effect area - or 65 feet application range 20 feet application area.
There has to be some risk involved in launching such a massive debuff that can result in quite effective AP starvation of large packs of enemies effectively taking them out from fight for a moderate time period.
Is it such a massive debuff though? In reality it would still not get used, just like the SH 100ft -50% AP cost M1. I mean come on, compare the AM 15pt speccable M4 to this core M1, and tell me how letting this morale sine a bit brighter is a bad idea. Not to mention that it's on top of the lifetap tree.
buff are not strong as debuff in this case; if you can cover the whole ap regen with raw ap you dont need an ap cutter. Viceversa if you force onto the debuff this strong the use of the sh m1 you end like with slayer shatter limbs vs choppa /chopp fastapre BO change. You force enemy wb to take something becasue you cant play with out it since enemy screw you with the opposite debuff. Again there are A LOT of ap management source, make one that strong is not the right solution when they can all stack.
There is AP management on both sides yes, the difference in them is that one side has infinite AP while other one doesn't. Order has access to a few good AP skills, none of which are even remotely viable because of the state the game is in currently. And no, this morale won't be any different, if anything I would slap a 200AP drain on it aswell as the cost increase to even things out a bit. Not that it matters much, 2 ST dots is enough to regen full AP even when popping flee with zealot ritual, and the fact that almost all classes have access to AoE in some form or another means Order simply can't keep up with the sustain even on classes that in theory should be drainable.

So basically, in the CURRENT state one more potential AP effect for order to stack in an effort to make a dent might give some results, but that's because anything that can currently be thrown out has virtually no impact. And the fact that you believe zealot ritual needs work does not mean it will get work, and as such this discussion can't be made around possible future changes to this or other skills.

And 100ft range being too much? I gave you a limited example of utility targeted AoE morales being 100ft, but it's not limited to those. 100ft range is the standard range for targeted AoE morales, how is this being ignored?? I mean SH/BWs instakilling 9 people with 100ft targeted AoE morales is somehow more okay than an AM doing a slight AP debuff from the same range on the same amount of people? Relatively speaking this M4 is leaps and bounds away from being anything viable, and as such I don't see why this particular one getting the same range as any other morale is wrong. Now a case could be made for making it conal or whatever instead, but again, it would have zero use.

Anyways, solution 1 as Aza said is being implemented, 100ft targeted for both components ain't too shabby, but the buff part really goes to waste with this implementation, basically leaving it as way weaker than it needs to be.
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