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Archtype Morales: MDPS

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#11 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:37 pm

adamthelc wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:20 pm I don't think a single target low damage melee morale needs any counterplay. I don't think sever nerve needs to be changed.

Force of will needs a change and that's not bad. But instead of resseting CDs I would just make it a charge and make you immune to snare/root while charging. WE and WHs would get the same thing.

Not a huge fan of the Relentless Assault proposal, considering the proposal to caster M3. Just seems to homogenized. Instead of giving more choices it would be giving everyone the same choice. My personal taste is I like a lit bit of variety even if its not totally balanced.
I am not intimately aware of WH/WE's internal class balance since solo play holds zero pull for me. As such I wasn't sure if a charge would break them. I even thought about splitting them from melee dps like I did with physical ranged and magical ranger. Playstyle being so different.

Honestly, that's kind of the point. Moderate homogenization (melee one is larger radius fire/forget, magical one is smaller radius fire/forget, ranged one is channel large radius not delayed) in the archtype morales. Then we can make all of the class-based morales unique and flavorful.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#12 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:42 pm

I agree with the homogenization approach. Form a base for each archetype. We'll tweak and differentiate later.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#13 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:49 pm

Ramasee wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:25 pm
Tesq wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:14 pm serve nerve is st m1 it is a fine moral both in rvr and in sc and is a very good contendor with def m1 for all melee i dont think it should be touch

relentless assoult is not a dmg moral in first place so idk what you are refeing too.

m4 never get use because all melee use their owm m2. which are all offensive morales.

chopp/slayer proc moral
wl/mara 1200 aoe (1 channeling / 1 ista)

problems on melee and ranged damages dealers are on racial m2 not on core archtype.
Only change to sever nerve is a 3s delay on its damage. You pop it, 3s later target takes the full damage (1200). This is to allow the counterplay with defensive morales.

I forgot the (redesign) tag on relentless assault. Sorry about that. I'll fix it.

Yes the problems ARE on the class M2s. The problem with the morale balance is across all classes. Best to change the archtype morales to even out what we expect all classes to be able to bring on a basic level, and allow the class specific ones to be flavored towards the class.
i just dont see the need serve nerve is st and it dont need to see add a delay, usually m1 are not so a big deal neither in small scale or orvr. The only morales for me which need to be touched are offensive aoe m2-m3 and all def morales be make worth some thing by directly improve em or nerf off morales.
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#14 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:59 pm

Tesq wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:49 pm
Ramasee wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:25 pm
Tesq wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:14 pm serve nerve is st m1 it is a fine moral both in rvr and in sc and is a very good contendor with def m1 for all melee i dont think it should be touch

relentless assoult is not a dmg moral in first place so idk what you are refeing too.

m4 never get use because all melee use their owm m2. which are all offensive morales.

chopp/slayer proc moral
wl/mara 1200 aoe (1 channeling / 1 ista)

problems on melee and ranged damages dealers are on racial m2 not on core archtype.
Only change to sever nerve is a 3s delay on its damage. You pop it, 3s later target takes the full damage (1200). This is to allow the counterplay with defensive morales.

I forgot the (redesign) tag on relentless assault. Sorry about that. I'll fix it.

Yes the problems ARE on the class M2s. The problem with the morale balance is across all classes. Best to change the archtype morales to even out what we expect all classes to be able to bring on a basic level, and allow the class specific ones to be flavored towards the class.
i just dont see the need serve nerve is st and it dont need to see add a delay, usually m1 are not so a big deal neither in small scale or orvr. The only morales for me which need to be touched are offensive aoe m2-m3 and all def morales be make worth some thing by directly improve em or nerf off morales.
I concede the point since I too don't actually find it to be a problem. Consistency and introducing the concept drove that idea to begin with.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#15 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:10 pm

With all due reapect i dont find the currently core morales accross classes in need of a rewamp

Just the:
- interation between off and def morales
-aoe m2-m3 stealing the scene of m4

be problems...

I (at least) would prefer a QoL changes approace with things (changes) kept simple again. Rather than push for a full rewamp , server pop would alredy be happy if some counter play were introduce aka less ista stuff and m2-3 not being on par with m4

For exemple if you give all tanks def m2 you make useless sorc/engi m2.

we should make the alredy present pool of morales "more " relevant not viceversa make em more redundant. currently only few morales get spot because what i said above.

What morales need are general rules valid for all morales regarding dmg scaling more than a archtype rewamp. And possible def morales alredy present in game to work vs off moralea if not completly at least a bit. Is all a matter of give small counterweights/check and balances here and there not about change the whole system.
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#16 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:35 pm

Tesq wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:10 pm With all due reapect i dont find the currently core morales accross classes in need of a rewamp

Just the:
- interation between off and def morales
-aoe m2-m3 stealing the scene of m4

be problems...

I (at least) would prefer a QoL changes approace with things (changes) kept simple again. Rhater than push for a full rewamp , server pop would alredy be happy if some counter play were introduce aka less ista stuff and m2-3 not being on par with m4

For exemple if you give all tanks def morales you make useless sorc/engi m2.

we should make the alredy present pool of morales "more " relevant not viceversa make em more redundant. currently only few morales get spot because what i said above.

What morales need are general rules valid for all morales regarding dmg scaling more than a archtype rewamp. And possible def morales alredy present in game to work vs off moralea if not completly at least a bit. Is all a matter of give small counterweights/check and balances here and there not about change the whole system.
Its not a full revamp. Changing the morale rate from to 10 to 36 had a bigger impact than these set of changes will. This thread, mdps, has 1 swap and two redesigned skills; magical dps has 1 swap and a redesign morale; tank has 1 swap with a reduction of value for new placement; physical ranged has 1 moderate redesign and a small radius increase to m4; Healers okay that one has a bit but that's because two of them are terrible, 4 redesigns and 1 swap.

Yes class-based morales such as engi/sorc would need to be revisited afterwards. [metaphor] In order to build a mansion, you first need a solid foundation.

This change does follow a set of rules. All AoE Damage morales should be M3 or higher; they should also be "time bombs" or channels instead of instant damage. Archtype morales should be focused around your archtype (and to lesser extent its off-spec) with flavorful morales (Gork Sez Stop for example) being tied to the individual classes. Some defensive morales should be tailored towards morale defense; all of these changes have been aimed at small counter weights. 3s before damage activation is 2 GCDs to notice and use the appropriate defense in hectic environments.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#17 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:51 pm

Per see the changes may be few but you dont grasp the impact that standardize all same morales in same slot will produce: For exemple you said that engi/sorc m2 gona need to be revisited. Aka some classes should reach some morales before other for other kind of balance need due classes difference or base game design. Those engi/sorc m2 will post changes still be irrelevants. I wanna have change that poduces results per se hitting the problem at the root.

The stuff you are proposing to change works alredy well and smooth in game. That'my prob with the 4 proposal. The change you are supporting gona require tons of work because will generate other necessary changes (change for the sake of change) which just make difficult the whole balance process.

Again these morales in suggestion for a change are not the problem , others are. Even the fact that you suggest to introduces def m2 is hard to balance as if you do that off m2-3 then should not be nerf...

I just see a lot of multiple additional problems, very few solution to "core " ( where core stay for real prov from year 2009 ) problems and fix for stuff which is not a problem at all (like sever nerve) here. Not my intention to be rude just see it this way.
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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#18 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:22 pm

Tesq wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:51 pm Per see the changes may be few but you dont grasp the impact that standardize all same morales in same slot will produce: For exemple you said that engi/sorc m2 gona need to be revisited. Aka some classes should reach some morales before other for other kind of balance need due classes difference or base game design. Those engi/sorc m2 will post changes still be irrelevants. I wanna have change that poduces results per se hitting the problem at the root.

The stuff you are proposing to change works alredy well and smooth in game. That'my prob with the 4 proposal. The change you are supporting gona require tons of work because will generate other necessary changes (change for the sake of change) which just make difficult the whole balance process.

Again these morales in suggestion for a change are not the problem , others are. Even the fact that you suggest to introduces def m2 is hard to balance as if you do that off m2-3 then should not be nerf...

I just see a lot of multiple additional problems, very few solution to "core " ( where core stay for real prov from year 2009 ) problems and fix for stuff which is not a problem at all (like sever nerve) here. Not my intention to be rude just see it this way.
Here is what I understand would have to happen to make these changes work. You can then make comments on if I grasp the impact.
Spoiler:
First each of these have to be programmed. Since many of these changes have other aspects that work similar, much of the coding can be copied and slightly adjusted. For instance pulling the delay on damage effect from something like boiling blood. Adjusting defensive morale coding has been said in another thread that it can be done. With all these changes (if implemented incrementally), you would likely have to disable some classes unique morales that compete and offend balance (like damage m2s) until the new morale that is designed specifically for the class can be designed and made. You bring up engi/sorc m2 again, so for instance those could be redesigned for flavor complimenting the class abilities. That is the second phase of this idea: Look at each class's unique morales individually to balance with the archtype morales. Then the community has to adapt to the changes and realize, hey its not just maras and bws that bring bomb morales anymore!

The morale minigame of pumps and drains has to be adjusted, but that's an entirely different thread even though it encroaches on the same issue. Mega-threads do little good because good ideals/information is lost when the thread splinters into 10 different conversations. Hence why I split this idea into 5 threads. Everything else I see proposed by community members is piecemeal bandages. This follows the general strategy (that has since been strikethrough) of adjusting the background first and then the specifics.
Maybe I haven't been clear about this. ALL direct damage AoE morales at the m2 level that havent been moved will be scrapped and something different (hopefully with much input by members of that class's community) will be put in place.

I conceded sever nerve and told you why, not sure why that's brought up again. I don't find you rude, I find your post to be exceptionally vague.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#19 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:41 pm

Thats another point you dont need to scrap all m2-3 in game some of these morales are fine, if only bw/mara get use then the problem is there , there are similar morales in game some which should remain like wh/we, some need a tone down; but if ALREDY classes outside these 2-3 we keep mention dont get the spot and they alredy have ista m2 like sw then there is no need for a rewamp classes less strong aoe wise should have these strong (stronger than other classes) morales (they have something to cover for other weakness) Some other like bw and mara should have lesser stronger version.

Yet i still see no evidence and thats my poiny that CORE morales need a rewamp, not once. Offensive morales m2 and 3 are not core and those only are the prob; then fix those. Duno nothing more to add, just agree to disagree this ia my opinion.
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lefze
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Re: Archtype Morales: MDPS

Post#20 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:01 pm

I really don't see a point in changing any morale tied to smallscale. These are already for the most part defensive and utility/debuff based anyways, and the moralegame works very well as it is.

Suggested changes will bring nothing to the table here. So I suggest keeping a majority of both archetype and class morales as they are and rather look at the problematic morales in largescale specifically.

And even in lager scale a balance/dynamic/status quo exists in the moralegame, but the fact that absolutely no one cares to use the tools available apparently makes it necessary to introduce useless tweaks. And frankly this isn't something that can be remade properly unless you remove all the mechanics already in place, and this includes tweaking/removing a staggering amount of existing tactics, morales and abilities.

Moralepumps, 1800-2400 morales, moraledrains, AP drains and AP generators are where you should be looking, or would have been if they were even commonly used. Is it really a good idea to rebalance the whole game instead of just making people aware of the stuff already in, and tweak as necessary when the playerbase as a whole starts actually playing the game?
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