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[AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

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live4treasure
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[AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#1 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:36 am

Suggestion A

With the recent direction the classes have been taken, it seems that Vaul and Da Green have become less "lifetap" mastery trees, and more trees associated with utility and healing. There doesn't seem to be much damage there, and so the two abilities Storm of Cronos and Scuse Me, which are abilities that purely facilitate damage dealing, seem rather out of place there. You have to get them, but because you can't go too deep into that tree without it having a negative effect on your damage output, you end up capped at 283 resist debuff value.

It's a simple suggestion, in following with the themes of the respective trees, I would suggest moving the resist debuff abilities to the dps trees, exchanging their spot with the ranged aoe knockback effect. It'll be a positive change for all playstyles and specs of AM and Sham.

Suggestion B

We'll likely be losing Dissipating Energies and Da Waaagh is Coming in the upcoming patch. That's my assumption at least, and so I think this creates an interesting opportunity for allowing an aoe-centered 15 point asuryan and gork ability to really flourish, replacing the much less then spectacular abilities before it. Such an ability will create a possible spec for AM/Sham that will allow them to contribute to, although likely not quite excell at, large scale rvr.

I think the most simple and least likely to cause any problems option would be a channeled ability that deals damage at a certain aoe, very much like the Magus' Flamestorm, albeit without the snare effect. Just simple, honest aoe damage. It's something the spec lacked before and would likely be made viable by the 25% chance to remove a blessing provided by a tactic lower down in the tree. There are plenty of options in lore for naming and visualising such an ability. For example, Fiery Convocation is a High Magic spell that is the single most powerful unit killing spell in Warhammer FB, a staple and very iconic of the Archmage.

Then there is a more nuanced option to create an ability much like Mistress of the Marsh that would instead of debuffing one's initiative, would instead deal damage to all targets passing through it's snare zone. This one would obviously be a more powerful option, considering it is also a fire and forget type of ability, but it does have a few conceptual and mechanical advantages in terms of elegance. The first one would be that it would allow the damage dealing archmage or shaman much more freedom of how to spec in the option to not go for Mistress of the Marsh or Sticky Feet if he so chooses, as that effect will be covered by this alternative and instead invest his points into what was previously the lifetap tree, perhaps take the silence effect, for example. The second one would be that he could still fulfill his hybridish role in the warband, in that after using this skill, he will have the freedom to apply aoe healing or single target healing or debuffs as necessary. And the final, the least important bit, is that the M4 ability that would become baseline as a result, if ever reached by some miracle, would be usable at the same time, as it doesn't tie up the AM's/Shaman's hands. It would have to still be a decently potent damage dealing tool in order to earn the DPS AM/Sham a spot in a warband, though, and this is where the potential for overtuning comes into play.

I won't even pretend to know what exact numbers should come into play, I am simply here to provide a few choice ideas that I believe will benefit the class.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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dansari
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Re: [AM/Sham] A few suggestions for the Asuryan and Gork trees

Post#2 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:38 am

Closed August 14.
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Azarael
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#3 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:48 am

With respect to AM / Shaman 13 point, I was going to go with a 2s or 3s cast with flight time which inflicts damage, removes up to (2/3) Blessings and deals extra damage for each one removed, because of the ability of Archmages and High Magic in particular to disjunction lesser magic effects and turn them against the host. I'm not really sold on AoE damage as a 13 pointer - it seems a bit Dragon Gun to me and not that much different to what we have.

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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#4 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:27 am

It is definitely not a bad ability, my concern is only that it is a rather situational ability for a 13 point one, directed to specifically counter zealots/runepriests, which would also make the dispell magic/gorks touch tactic's (25% chance to stip a blessing and damage the enemy for a small amount) use far more narrow or even obsolete outside of spreading it onto an aoe effect, unless of course this cast time ability would deal noticeably more damage than a Radiant Lance or Brain Buster at a baseline, to warrant using it in any situation, even if the target has no blessing. If you choose to stick to that ability, I would suggest perhaps leaving the ability to break blessings to the dispell magic/mork's touch tactic and give it some other auxiliary effect, unless there are plans to change the tactic as well, or perhaps expanding its use to dispelling any one beneficial magical effect in this way on the target. But of course, I think us DPS AMs and Shams would be happy with just any ability that would benefit our spec in a real way :D

I've spoken to a few of the bigger DPS AM names (Telen, Rioz) on what they think of the 13 point ability and what we've come up with is an instant cast single target spell that would consume all available damage mechanic stacks to deal progressively more damage for each, ideally ending up somewhat more powerful than a radiant lance/brain busta when making use of the maximum amount of stacks. The auxiliary function of it would be to set one's mechanic position from 5 damage stacks to 0, allowing the dps AM/Sham a much easier transition to utilizing Balance Essence/I'll Take That should it be needed for healing himself or his allies. I thought I would post it, just so it's there as an additional idea.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Azarael
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#5 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:31 am

The problem I have with that is that you're producing a same-type effect - the point of the mechanic is that stacks built from damage are used on healing and vice versa. Such a proposition is effectively giving you WH/WE's builder mechanic as well.

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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#6 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:53 am

I see, so the philosophy is that DPS should stick to force stacks and healer to tranquility as a baseline. We thought it would be an interesting additional way to utilize the mechanic and add another dimension of complexity to managing one's mechanic, in addition to benefiting hybrid play, but it does make sense that such an effect would be undesireable in favor of keeping things distinct.

If that suggestion isn't an option, then I'll have another chat and if we come up with a few other good suggestions for what you were going to go with or something else, we'll bring them here for you to consider
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Azarael
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#7 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:07 am

Go for it.

I recall in your previous topics you were asking about the general philosophy of DPS AM and DPS Shaman, and the associated trees. I was not able to answer at that point without breaking cover, so I will do so now. I view AM and Shaman as their stated archetype role first and their off specs second. My implementation of the mechanic was intended to allow the choice, when healing, to use the stacks on burst assist or on move-healing, and I viewed the Asuryan and Gork trees as the specializations for those who may want to amplify their burst potential. The current rates of Disrupt are presenting significant issues for using heal stacks for damage, but that will most likely change.

I am not hostile to primary DPS or hybrid AMs, but as you and others will have noticed by my direction on the lifetaps, I work from the heal perspective first.

dshdf
Posts: 90

Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#8 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:50 am

live4treasure wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:36 am Suggestion A
Spoiler:
With the recent direction the classes have been taken, it seems that Vaul and Da Green have become less "lifetap" mastery trees, and more trees associated with utility and healing. There doesn't seem to be much damage there, and so the two abilities Storm of Cronos and Scuse Me, which are abilities that purely facilitate damage dealing, seem rather out of place there. You have to get them, but because you can't go too deep into that tree without it having a negative effect on your damage output, you end up capped at 283 resist debuff value.

It's a simple suggestion, in following with the themes of the respective trees, I would suggest moving the resist debuff abilities to the dps trees, exchanging their spot with the ranged aoe knockback effect. It'll be a positive change for all playstyles and specs of AM and Sham.
Suggestion B
Spoiler:
We'll likely be losing Dissipating Energies and Da Waaagh is Coming in the upcoming patch. That's my assumption at least, and so I think this creates an interesting opportunity for allowing an aoe-centered 15 point asuryan and gork ability to really flourish, replacing the much less then spectacular abilities before it. Such an ability will create a possible spec for AM/Sham that will allow them to contribute to, although likely not quite excell at, large scale rvr.

I think the most simple and least likely to cause any problems option would be a channeled ability that deals damage at a certain aoe, very much like the Magus' Flamestorm, albeit without the snare effect. Just simple, honest aoe damage. It's something the spec lacked before and would likely be made viable by the 25% chance to remove a blessing provided by a tactic lower down in the tree. There are plenty of options in lore for naming and visualising such an ability. For example, Fiery Convocation is a High Magic spell that is the single most powerful unit killing spell in Warhammer FB, a staple and very iconic of the Archmage.

Then there is a more nuanced option to create an ability much like Mistress of the Marsh that would instead of debuffing one's initiative, would instead deal damage to all targets passing through it's snare zone. This one would obviously be a more powerful option, considering it is also a fire and forget type of ability, but it does have a few conceptual and mechanical advantages in terms of elegance. The first one would be that it would allow the damage dealing archmage or shaman much more freedom of how to spec in the option to not go for Mistress of the Marsh or Sticky Feet if he so chooses, as that effect will be covered by this alternative and instead invest his points into what was previously the lifetap tree, perhaps take the silence effect, for example. The second one would be that he could still fulfill his hybridish role in the warband, in that after using this skill, he will have the freedom to apply aoe healing or single target healing or debuffs as necessary. And the final, the least important bit, is that the M4 ability that would become baseline as a result, if ever reached by some miracle, would be usable at the same time, as it doesn't tie up the AM's/Shaman's hands. It would have to still be a decently potent damage dealing tool in order to earn the DPS AM/Sham a spot in a warband, though, and this is where the potential for overtuning comes into play.

I won't even pretend to know what exact numbers should come into play, I am simply here to provide a few choice ideas that I believe will benefit the class.
as sham im strongly against suggestion A.
unlike AM a lot of sham's dps tied to da green tree (2 out of 6 core dmg spells). Moreover, taking into account current efficiency of gorks barbs and incoming rework of Da waagh is comin there are only 2 good damage spells in mastery trees (both in da green), so shams damage spells rightnow equally split between gork and da green masteries(4 vs 4). If im not mistaken this rate would be 6 vs 3 for AM. In terms of utility sham got only moral pump improvment( which is easily accrssoble in any build) in 2nd tree, while for am its upime healdebuff (which cant be learned right now in the same time storm of chronos and funnel essence
so 1st point: suggestion A favors AM(especially in 1+2 or 2+1 builds) more than Sham
2: also i should point out that with such spell swap 3rd path will be even more weaker as main one. In that case 13pt aoe tap builds(not sure that they exist) will be even less popular than now

as for suggestion B my only hope for new 13pt middle path - 1 sec cast or 100 ft range spell. Sham/AM aint tanky enough to constantly use spells like da waagh is comin which in the same time 80ft and 2 sec cast

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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#9 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:28 am

@dshdf The only damage based ability in Da Green tree is Bleed Fer Me, that's it. Lifetaps don't scale with intellect anymore and the damage per tick of Bleed Fer Me is the lowest of the dots and rightfully so. The lifetap tree at the moment shouldn't be regarded as a main tree for any build, unless you're looking to take Fury of Da Green, which is also a healing tool. Having Scuse me or not won't increase its damage much and won't increase its healing much, which is why changing it to dps tree really won't make a difference for healer, but will benefit dps sham much more. Arguably having ranged knockback is beneficial for healers, as they can now take it if they have an extra point lying around in their build and possibly use it for knocking people off rams in the keep or off the ramp near the lord or assist in morale bombing by knocking back healers in enemy wb backline at choice moments. It's a gimmicky ability, but it's still an option. There's no reason for it to be in the dps tree though, since it doesn't facilitate dps in any way.
Last edited by live4treasure on Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:28 am

dshdf wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:50 am unlike AM a lot of sham's dps tied to da green tree (2 out of 6 core dmg spells).
Not since the changes to the lifetap tree they dont.
Shaman will need to go Gork now.
Storm/Scuse Me were originally tied to middle tree. It was only moved to 5 in right so you could get a debuff earlier and it wouldnt fit anywhere else. Typical of Mythic.
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