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[Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

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dshdf
Posts: 80

Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#11 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:49 pm

Azarael wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:05 am

I have the following questions:
Spoiler:
1) If HoTs do not trigger Restorative Burst in general, should we restore this functionality for one HoT or look at improving Yer Not So Bad or something else? A suggestion I had heard was reworking Pass It On to cause YNSB to boucne to nearby foes.

2) If the common statement regarding AM and Shaman is that one is mobility-weak and one is AP-weak, should we change this state of affairs rather than try to cover for it using another class's abilities?

3) Is AP on Shaman still a problem in the wake of recent improvements?

4) If likely forthcoming changes to add strikethrough stats to renown specialization are implemented, will the improved reliabilty of YNSB warrant doing nothing?
1) probably you can improve YNSB just by marking it as "offensive" spell which comsumes healing mechanic points? pretty sure that if it would be casted with 70% total stat instead of 200-300 int situation would be better. In the same time base drain amount could be reduced abit to countervail +25% bonus for instacasts with mechanic

2)weaknesses should stay weaknesses, but they shoulndt be absolute ones like current sham ap situation

3) it's slightly better now, but only when you have chance to play around mechanic. Thats aint possible in many cases (no enemy in line of sight, enemy heavy pushes, etc)

4) you barely want to spend smthn like 10-20rr pts on striketrough just to make ap drain reliable

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wachlarz
Posts: 416

Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#12 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 pm

dansari wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 pm
Telen wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am
1) YNSB is unreliable, gets disrupted then on top of wasting a cd and missing out on the ap you wasted the ap casting it. Having it bounce seems to extend that unreliability.
Idea would be to have 100% strikethrough on YNSB initial application with a chance to be disrupted on each bounce, with a chance to bounce 3-4 times giving minimal AP each time (50 over 5s or something like that). I don't disagree that Wild Healing is more reliable and requires less management than this, though, as far as 11pt tactics are concerned. The primary advantage was fixing two issues at once: making Pass it On usable and diminishing AP concerns.
Ok so use skill spend 50 ap and i get 50 ap in 5s. Mega utility skill xd

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2760

Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#13 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:31 pm

You don't mistake DSU procing ap gain from Sov ap proc instead of RB now, coz all heal ticks would proc the Sov ap proc. I also can't remember any single instance of any hots ever procing RB. Not even Ritual/Masterrune which been stated in the past and been used as a argument to why crit was removed ftom those skills.
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Nameless
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Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#14 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:18 pm

Sov got 2 ap procs for, shamans. Pre rework sov 7 pieces /or so/ was super op ap proc on heal which was proccing on every heal even heal from hot ticks and insta refill 50 ap /super op. And after sov rework rb alike proc that didnt proced from hots and worked same as.rb.
Last edited by Nameless on Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dansari
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Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#15 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:33 pm

Spoiler:
wachlarz wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 pm
dansari wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 pm
Telen wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am
1) YNSB is unreliable, gets disrupted then on top of wasting a cd and missing out on the ap you wasted the ap casting it. Having it bounce seems to extend that unreliability.
Idea would be to have 100% strikethrough on YNSB initial application with a chance to be disrupted on each bounce, with a chance to bounce 3-4 times giving minimal AP each time (50 over 5s or something like that). I don't disagree that Wild Healing is more reliable and requires less management than this, though, as far as 11pt tactics are concerned. The primary advantage was fixing two issues at once: making Pass it On usable and diminishing AP concerns.
Ok so use skill spend 50 ap and i get 50 ap in 5s. Mega utility skill xd
I'm not sure how you ascertained that YNSB would drop from 180 AP to 50 AP, but that's not the intent. The idea would be with tactic: guaranteed initial application of drain plus the chance at another 100-150 AP, 50 each bounce lasting 5s, disallowing stacking because stacking AP drain is cancer anyway. So spend 50 get 180-330 back unless cleansed or a bounce fails due to disrupt. Is that clearer?
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wachlarz
Posts: 416

Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#16 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:59 pm

I See some problems like :
1. I use on Slayer YNSB that attack me. Can he spend all his pull of AP faster than YNSB drain his Ap ? What when i use YNSB on some1 that have 10/200ap ? i drain from him any Ap ?
2. I use on Wh YNSB. He die faster than 9 sec of YNSB work. So i spend Ap on YNSB and got nothing.

Can we make YNSB un-defendable ? YNSB tick can be parried/dis ? If un-defendable it will be to much OP, make cd of YNSB to like 18 sec. I like 18 sec cd but 100% work than 9sec cd and it work from 0-100% chance.

And all who says "skill work on Live like this" ITS NOT A LIVE SERWER. I think We wanna make better game not the clone.

dansari
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Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#17 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:03 pm

For sure, there are advantages and disadvantages to my idea regarding Pass it On rework, and frankly it's off topic, but I did want to clear up the suggestion so nothing was misinterpreted.
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wachlarz
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Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#18 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:44 pm

Azarael wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:05 am
I am opening this topic.

The evidence presented is clear; Do Sumfin Useful crits triggered Restorative Burst on live.

The second issue will be fixed in the next ability patch - Blessing of Chaos incorrectly counted as a standard buff and not a tactic.

I have the following questions:

1) If HoTs do not trigger Restorative Burst in general, should we restore this functionality for one HoT or look at improving Yer Not So Bad or something else? A suggestion I had heard was reworking Pass It On to cause YNSB to boucne to nearby foes.

2) If the common statement regarding AM and Shaman is that one is mobility-weak and one is AP-weak, should we change this state of affairs rather than try to cover for it using another class's abilities?

3) Is AP on Shaman still a problem in the wake of recent improvements?

4) If likely forthcoming changes to add strikethrough stats to renown specialization are implemented, will the improved reliabilty of YNSB warrant doing nothing?
About 4. If Sham play dps strikethrought meaby ok but when i play a heal sham ? And YNSB work from Int ? Heal sham i think stack Will

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Caffeine
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Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#19 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:35 pm

Thank you for reopening this topic and for getting the project back on track in general. We are lucky to have you back.

Azarael wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:05 am
1) If HoTs do not trigger Restorative Burst in general, should we restore this functionality for one HoT or look at improving Yer Not So Bad or something else? A suggestion I had heard was reworking Pass It On to cause YNSB to boucne to nearby foes.

If lifetap mode is here to stay then the biggest selling point of Shaman and AM for the foreseeable future will be single target burst healing. Turning [Pass It On] in to a [Transfer Magic] variant would definitely make [Pass It On] more useful than it is now. However, I think there is simply too much competition for tactic slots for a [Pass It On] rework to make a difference.

At the moment a well performing heal spec revolves around using [I'll Take That] boosted by [Waaagh! Frenzy] and [Aint Done Yet]. [Restorative Burst] is pretty much mandatory if you plan on using [I'll Take That] more than once. [Extra Special Mushrooms] boosts your overall healing and increases your chance to proc [Restorative Burst] signinfically. [Wazat Behind You!?] has a nice benefit of you not dying to a Champ Challenge.

[Green Cleanin'] is also worth considering as it gives you more mileage out of cleanse by applying a unique hot for each cleansed debuff. Cleansing is worth doing on CD just to build up mechanic points if nothing else. [RUN AWAY!] is a luxury I won't even mention.

At the end of the day If you are serious about bringing back lifetaps the most important thing to do is to sit down and figure out how spammable and effective they get to be. As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think this is very healthy for the game:
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That being said I dislike the idea of [Penetrating Siphon] and [Gimme Dat!] tactics because it's a forced solution to a created problem with too many tactics already competing for a slot. Needless to say, if major avoidance changes happen down the line the strikethrough tactics will have to be revisited.

Assuming Disrupt rates stay the same [Balanced Essence] and [I'll Take That] should have their base cost increased to 50 and [Waaagh! Frenzy] and [Expanded Control] should be changed to give a reduced cast time and provide their respective skill 10% strikethrough. Also, potentially make [Desperation] and [Aint Done Yet] provide a slightly smaller bonus but also kick in slightly earlier.

Numbers are obviously subject to change.

Azarael wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:05 am
2) If the common statement regarding AM and Shaman is that one is mobility-weak and one is AP-weak, should we change this state of affairs rather than try to cover for it using another class's abilities?

A good place to start is to make sure both classes are respectable, self sufficient healers and then go from there. My DSU proposal is a simple change that gives Shaman a boost where it really needs it without adding new tactics or abilities. As others have pointed out it's unclear for how long DSU worked the way videos illustrate. For all I know it might have been a long standing bug on live. I deliberately submitted this as a balance proposal and not as a bug report because I think that this change will be for the better on RoR.

Azarael wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:05 am
3) Is AP on Shaman still a problem in the wake of recent improvements?

At the moment both AM and Shaman are enjoying undefendable liftaps (ticket) which I'm sure you know. Despite this I still struggle with AP on mine. Furthermore, we've recently had a major change in how AP regen works which hurt most classes, Shaman included.

Azarael wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:05 am
4) If likely forthcoming changes to add strikethrough stats to renown specialization are implemented, will the improved reliabilty of YNSB warrant doing nothing?

I think it would essentially be a renown tax on being who you are. I see having to spend renown in order to make core abilities usable as a disadvantage, especially for low RR players. Again, if major avoidance changes happen down the line this spec tree will most likely lose value.
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Azarael
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Re: [Shaman] Do Sumfin Useful and Shrug It Off

Post#20 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:39 pm

I'll have to check lifetaps in more detail tomorrow, it's quite late now. I hadn't realized there was a problem - the values are correct in the DB.

There will be renown penetration coming up, but that's a general response to the fact that there exist a set of renown stats (avoidances) which have no counter within the renown system. If the Disrupt situation changes as a result, then you are correct that strikethrough tactics in particular may not be necessary.

Situations can be engineered in which heals will produce impressive numbers, yes. Shrug It Off stacks with Blessing of Chaos, and with Desperation in the mix plus a crit I can see hitting 3k on an I'll Take That!. If it's too strong we'll undoubtedly hear more about it.

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