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[SW] Sweeping Slash

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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#21 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:56 am

blackwatch1508 wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:16 am Both a decrease in cool down, and some extra range would be nice. I'd swear it doesn't go 25 ft, but I'm not the best judge of range in RoR. I don't see it turning ASW into aoe threats. It would add more to my melee rotation in group combat. Less GS spamming lol.
Currently I only really use it as an opener, in a crowd, or against someone just out of range.
it doesn't have 25ft range, not when using the calculation Enemy uses at the very least. According to Enemy it has about 18ft range, had to test it because the skill failed to land way too often when I popped it, and was actually shocked at it having a range of more than 10-15ft when we tested it. The skill also suffers from failure to land if someone is moving away from you.

As for the buff turning ASW into an AoE threat, it still wouldn't make it into a guild warband or bring value to any smaller form of bomb focused setups even with a 0 second CD Sweeping Slash. However, it would help the spec perform a little bit better for RvR, where it currently doesn't really work for much besides ganking solo pugs as it has some glaring issues that partially fade in a 6v6, but are extremely well felt in the lakes.
Rip Phalanx

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Tesq
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#22 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:13 am

i agree on make SS a more support for aoe skill, CD is not required tought make it spamable, it will not be consistent otherwise; a sw spamming 2 sec cast time aoe with close quartiers will still dish out more dmg but now you will have a option to change stance when catched up.

instead give a 5 sec CD give it a lower target cap , do 6 so that it can move into assoult stace for those reasons above + will keep still some pressure but it wont be on par melees aoe.

5 sec will still make skill not even reliable and not worth the swap into assoult for the builds options you have. Basically even with 5 sec CD the mastery point spent there would be wasted.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#23 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:33 am

Okay, so basically I figured out why the hell the skill sucks so bad when compared to other melee skills. It's actually quite obvious, and it applies for every single low range AoE. Basically, way back in the day melee abilities got one hell of a hidden range boost to compensate for lags, desyncs, and general issues the game has with the position you see compared to where people actually are, but this was only applied for the 5ft targeted abilities from what I know. The result is this:

Image

So, this isn't an issue tied to this specific skill at all. However, the skill having a 10sec CD makes this extremely punishing, as a failed cast is much, much more noticeable than with a spammable skill. Anyways, this is something that might warrant a change for all low range AoE skills.
Tesq wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:13 am i agree on make SS a more support for aoe skill, CD is not required tought make it spamable, it will not be consistent otherwise; a sw spamming 2 sec cast time aoe with close quartiers will still dish out more dmg but now you will have a option to change stance when catched up.

instead give a 5 sec CD give it a lower target cap , do 6 so that it can move into assoult stace for those reasons above + will keep still some pressure but it wont be on par melees aoe.

5 sec will still make skill not even reliable and not worth the swap into assoult for the builds options you have. Basically even with 5 sec CD the mastery point spent there would be wasted.
Would not touch LA bombing, the issues are completely separate. I have a proposal planned for that already, almost made it today but wasn't satisfied with it.

But I completely agree that Sweeping Slash isn't worth taking for actual AoE at all unless it's on a 0 sec CD, but good luck getting anyone to agree to that, mostly because of "But 200 ini debuff!!!" and the spec being successful in 6v6. And the skill not being on par with other mdps AoE isn't really all that true, it does hit about as hard, and if it had zero second CD it would be more or less on par, but there is zero utility besides the okay damage. This really is something you can't look at in a vacuum, other (m)dps classes have several core/mastery tools besides AoE fillers, like AoE dots, burst abilities, interrupts, knockdowns, pulls, snares, cooldown increasers, cooldown decreasers, partybuffs, debuffs and mobility tools to mention a few. An AoE dot alone makes most other classes perform much better even if their filler is a little bit weaker than SS. Same goes for LA bombing at the moment, the only strength it has is 65ft range which in certain situations helps immensely with cleanup and pressure in areas slayer/BW can't reach.

Anyways, I was already told trying to make the spec function for AoE at all wasn't gonna go too well, so I'm just trying to make the skill something I might spec occasionally for the lulz because it's functional at least, which it definetly isn't at the moment.

Edit: Should add that the screenshot ranges apply for other 5ft melee skills and 25ft AoEs aswell, tested a couple.
Rip Phalanx

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Tesq
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#24 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:51 am

lefze wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:33 am
Spoiler:
Okay, so basically I figured out why the hell the skill sucks so bad when compared to other melee skills. It's actually quite obvious, and it applies for every single low range AoE. Basically, way back in the day melee abilities got one hell of a hidden range boost to compensate for lags, desyncs, and general issues the game has with the position you see compared to where people actually are, but this was only applied for the 5ft targeted abilities from what I know. The result is this:

Image

So, this isn't an issue tied to this specific skill at all. However, the skill having a 10sec CD makes this extremely punishing, as a failed cast is much, much more noticeable than with a spammable skill. Anyways, this is something that might warrant a change for all low range AoE skills.
Tesq wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:13 am i agree on make SS a more support for aoe skill, CD is not required tought make it spamable, it will not be consistent otherwise; a sw spamming 2 sec cast time aoe with close quartiers will still dish out more dmg but now you will have a option to change stance when catched up.

instead give a 5 sec CD give it a lower target cap , do 6 so that it can move into assoult stace for those reasons above + will keep still some pressure but it wont be on par melees aoe.

5 sec will still make skill not even reliable and not worth the swap into assoult for the builds options you have. Basically even with 5 sec CD the mastery point spent there would be wasted.
Would not touch LA bombing, the issues are completely separate. I have a proposal planned for that already, almost made it today but wasn't satisfied with it.

it wont influence LA bombing anyway, stance bind skill use

But I completely agree that Sweeping Slash isn't worth taking for actual AoE at all unless it's on a 0 sec CD, but good luck getting anyone to agree to that, mostly because of "But 200 ini debuff!!!"

mm unless i miss something what ini debuff have to do with the skill, the ini debuff got apply by a st skill what have to do with the proposal?

and the spec being successful in 6v6. And the skill not being on par with other mdps AoE isn't really all that true, it does hit about as hard, and if it had zero second CD it would be more or less on par

that's why i said hit 6 target , i know how much it can hit for, since i dont wanna see sw have a too easy way with aoe when swap to assoutl i suggested that target cap reduction

, but there is zero utility besides the okay damage. This really is something you can't look at in a vacuum, other (m)dps classes have several core/mastery tools besides AoE fillers, like AoE dots, burst abilities, interrupts, knockdowns, pulls, snares, cooldown increasers, cooldown decreasers, partybuffs, debuffs and mobility tools to mention a few. An AoE dot alone makes most other classes perform much better even if their filler is a little bit weaker than SS. Same goes for LA bombing at the moment, the only strength it has is 65ft range which in certain situations helps immensely with cleanup and pressure in areas slayer/BW can't reach.

well that is balance talk for another thing

Anyways, I was already told trying to make the spec function for AoE at all wasn't gonna go too well, so I'm just trying to make the skill something I might spec occasionally for the lulz because it's functional at least, which it definetly isn't at the moment.

Edit: Should add that the screenshot ranges apply for other 5ft melee skills and 25ft AoEs aswell, tested a couple.

that discrepancy feel gross, seems the form of compensation/base range should just be standardize for all aoe skill of the same kind so that all aoe normal dmg skill have the same reach for all melee etc.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#25 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:02 am

Tesq wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:51 am
lefze wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:33 am
Spoiler:
Okay, so basically I figured out why the hell the skill sucks so bad when compared to other melee skills. It's actually quite obvious, and it applies for every single low range AoE. Basically, way back in the day melee abilities got one hell of a hidden range boost to compensate for lags, desyncs, and general issues the game has with the position you see compared to where people actually are, but this was only applied for the 5ft targeted abilities from what I know. The result is this:

Image

So, this isn't an issue tied to this specific skill at all. However, the skill having a 10sec CD makes this extremely punishing, as a failed cast is much, much more noticeable than with a spammable skill. Anyways, this is something that might warrant a change for all low range AoE skills.
Tesq wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:13 am i agree on make SS a more support for aoe skill, CD is not required tought make it spamable, it will not be consistent otherwise; a sw spamming 2 sec cast time aoe with close quartiers will still dish out more dmg but now you will have a option to change stance when catched up.

instead give a 5 sec CD give it a lower target cap , do 6 so that it can move into assoult stace for those reasons above + will keep still some pressure but it wont be on par melees aoe.

5 sec will still make skill not even reliable and not worth the swap into assoult for the builds options you have. Basically even with 5 sec CD the mastery point spent there would be wasted.
Would not touch LA bombing, the issues are completely separate. I have a proposal planned for that already, almost made it today but wasn't satisfied with it.

it wont influence LA bombing anyway, stance bind skill use

But I completely agree that Sweeping Slash isn't worth taking for actual AoE at all unless it's on a 0 sec CD, but good luck getting anyone to agree to that, mostly because of "But 200 ini debuff!!!"

mm unless i miss something what ini debuff have to do with the skill, the ini debuff got apply by a st skill what have to do with the proposal?

and the spec being successful in 6v6. And the skill not being on par with other mdps AoE isn't really all that true, it does hit about as hard, and if it had zero second CD it would be more or less on par

that's why i said hit 6 target , i know how much it can hit for, since i dont wanna see sw have a too easy way with aoe when swap to assoutl i suggested that target cap reduction

, but there is zero utility besides the okay damage. This really is something you can't look at in a vacuum, other (m)dps classes have several core/mastery tools besides AoE fillers, like AoE dots, burst abilities, interrupts, knockdowns, pulls, snares, cooldown increasers, cooldown decreasers, partybuffs, debuffs and mobility tools to mention a few. An AoE dot alone makes most other classes perform much better even if their filler is a little bit weaker than SS. Same goes for LA bombing at the moment, the only strength it has is 65ft range which in certain situations helps immensely with cleanup and pressure in areas slayer/BW can't reach.

well that is balance talk for another thing

Anyways, I was already told trying to make the spec function for AoE at all wasn't gonna go too well, so I'm just trying to make the skill something I might spec occasionally for the lulz because it's functional at least, which it definetly isn't at the moment.

Edit: Should add that the screenshot ranges apply for other 5ft melee skills and 25ft AoEs aswell, tested a couple.

that discrepancy feel gross, seems the form of compensation/base range should just be standardize for all aoe skill of the same kind so that all aoe normal dmg skill have the same reach for all melee etc.
What I can tell you here is that a targetcap of 6 on the ability in question makes little to no sense. If the range is increased it would still be some kind of miracle for you to be in a situation where you are on the offensive and actually putting out AoE on 9 people, as I already said the spec isn't something you bring for AoE comps at all. However, if your 6 man for some reason end up in the frontline of a funnel, you definetly should be allowed to hit 9 people.

what confused me was this line: "instead give a 5 sec CD give it a lower target cap , do 6 so that it can move into assoult stace for those reasons above + will keep still some pressure but it wont be on par melees aoe.". Thought you wanted to reduce LA AoE cap to 6 and move it to Assault tree.
Rip Phalanx

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Tesq
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#26 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:42 am

i just dont want make the skill in question be a too valid substitute to LA in case sw is focussed / pulled so that swap assoult is super convenient in wb since skill is middle mastery and have easy acces. (I know it dont do LA dmg, not the point; i think is wrong the balance between def in assoult stance and aoe dmg output of SS be tbe same of other medium armor melee while use 9 target
Cap aoe skills).

Yes it dont have the LA dmg but LA is done in a rdps stance while SS in a melee stance. It is also important that swap to assoult still came with conseguence and SS is not on par with other 9 target aoe melee skills.

Choppa/slayer do 3 capped aoe and are fine for daily routine.

A 6 target cap spamable attack can go well for what you are asking, small scale aoe pressure when need + help a major engagement while roaming, with out make too advatageous swap to assoult when in danger sich and when you build aoe for spam LA still allow SW to be able to keep a bit of pressure aoe when going assoult for self defense.

At least this is how i see it.
Last edited by Tesq on Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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blackwatch1508
Posts: 62

Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#27 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:43 am

Spoiler:
lefze wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:56 am
blackwatch1508 wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:16 am Both a decrease in cool down, and some extra range would be nice. I'd swear it doesn't go 25 ft, but I'm not the best judge of range in RoR. I don't see it turning ASW into aoe threats. It would add more to my melee rotation in group combat. Less GS spamming lol.
Currently I only really use it as an opener, in a crowd, or against someone just out of range.
it doesn't have 25ft range, not when using the calculation Enemy uses at the very least. According to Enemy it has about 18ft range, had to test it because the skill failed to land way too often when I popped it, and was actually shocked at it having a range of more than 10-15ft when we tested it. The skill also suffers from failure to land if someone is moving away from you.

As for the buff turning ASW into an AoE threat, it still wouldn't make it into a guild warband or bring value to any smaller form of bomb focused setups even with a 0 second CD Sweeping Slash. However, it would help the spec perform a little bit better for RvR, where it currently doesn't really work for much besides ganking solo pugs as it has some glaring issues that partially fade in a 6v6, but are extremely well felt in the lakes.
Thank you Lefze. I have often had the running away issue. I assumed it was lag, I play NA, so I figured they were farther then my screen showed. If it's failing as you've said then increasing the range would not matter.
As for making it into organized WBs. I know my SW is fluff. I play her because she doesn't wear a dress and I enjoy playing her.

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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#28 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:44 am

Tesq wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:42 am i just dont want make the skill in question be a too valid substitute to LA in case sw is focussed / pulled so that swap assoult is super convenient in wb since skill is middle mastery and have easy acces. (I know it dont do LA dmg, not the point; i think is wrong the balance between def in assoult stance and aoe dmg output of SS be tbe same of other medium armor melee while use 9 target
Cap aoe skills).

Yes it dont have the LA dmg but LA is done in a rdps stance while SS in a melee stance. It is also important that swap to assoult still came with conseguence and SS is not on par with other 9 target aoe melee skills.

Choppa/slayer do 3 capped aoe and are fine for daily routine.

A 6 target cap spamable attack can go well for what you are asking, small scale aoe pressure when need + help a major engagement while roaming, with out make too advatageous swap to assoult when in danger sich and when you build aoe for spam LA still allow SW to be able to keep a bit of pressure aoe when going assoult for self defense.

At least this is how i see it.
Assault stance armor gain is quite literally worth nothing in a bomb environement. Swapping to assault would reduce your range by 40ft and remove your burst (LA+Barrage) for a whole 5 seconds, which is a lot seeing as bombing with LA is all about keeping that pressure up ALL the time. And for all that, assuming you are specced for LA bombing, you get to cast an ability that hits less than LA, has shorter range than LA and has no other AoE ability with cast time available to use with it for burst. And I just need to repeat it, assault stance offers no boost to survivability in that environement, so it's pointless.

So what we are left with is an ability that you either spec just because you can, and aim to use maybe 4-5 times per session for situations where you are punted after popping Barrage while approaching Expert Skirmisher range, and have no enemies close enough to use Swift Strikes on, and assuming you can even afford to be locked out of your damage for 5 seconds, and don't have FM up. All in all the skill would be absolutely useless for any spec aiming to bomb with LA, and as such should be balanced completely separately. If anything, it would become a choice between LA bombing and going ham on Assault, and even here the utility drop is relatively huge. SW suffers greatly from having all their AoE utility coming from tactics, and going up to the crit damage tactic means huge sacrifices for a relatively small damage boost. Not to mention the range decrease and loss of burst is significant. For gods sake, you would even loose your ranged knockdown, even if you are RR70.

What can be said about this though, is that LA bombing got its maximum potential bomb damage halved once, and it was nerfed again after that to be so unreliable that the overall damage was effectively halved again. I see no problems in allowing http://www.ror.builders/career/shadow-w ... ,3982,3961 For example, as it would make for a playstyle where you choose your stance depending on the situation. While again, you do sacrifice a lot just for bit of raw damage and greatly improved reliability, at least you get the choice to do so.

But at the end of the day, the proposal isn't about bombing, though that was not my choice. So this is all irrelevant, the proposal is still 5 second CD SS with a little range boost.

But I still gotta mention that you are kinda wrong about choppa getting by with a 3 AoE cap. While Lotsa choppin does have a cap of 3 without tactic slotted, it's also a core skill. In adition their AoE snare, AoE dot and Wild Choppin have AoE caps of 9, and two of those are core skills. And this is a thing:
http://www.ror.builders/career/choppa/s ... 94,4690&t=
Rip Phalanx

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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#29 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:45 am

blackwatch1508 wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:43 am
Spoiler:
lefze wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:56 am
blackwatch1508 wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:16 am Both a decrease in cool down, and some extra range would be nice. I'd swear it doesn't go 25 ft, but I'm not the best judge of range in RoR. I don't see it turning ASW into aoe threats. It would add more to my melee rotation in group combat. Less GS spamming lol.
Currently I only really use it as an opener, in a crowd, or against someone just out of range.
it doesn't have 25ft range, not when using the calculation Enemy uses at the very least. According to Enemy it has about 18ft range, had to test it because the skill failed to land way too often when I popped it, and was actually shocked at it having a range of more than 10-15ft when we tested it. The skill also suffers from failure to land if someone is moving away from you.

As for the buff turning ASW into an AoE threat, it still wouldn't make it into a guild warband or bring value to any smaller form of bomb focused setups even with a 0 second CD Sweeping Slash. However, it would help the spec perform a little bit better for RvR, where it currently doesn't really work for much besides ganking solo pugs as it has some glaring issues that partially fade in a 6v6, but are extremely well felt in the lakes.
Thank you Lefze. I have often had the running away issue. I assumed it was lag, I play NA, so I figured they were farther then my screen showed. If it's failing as you've said then increasing the range would not matter.
As for making it into organized WBs. I know my SW is fluff. I play her because she doesn't wear a dress and I enjoy playing her.
Well, if the range is increased sufficiently to compensate for the person you are hitting likely being 10-20ft further away than your screen shows, it might help.
Rip Phalanx

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daniilpb
Posts: 591

Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#30 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:18 am

lefze wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:33 am
I'm just trying to make the skill something I might spec occasionally for the lulz because it's functional at least, which it definetly isn't at the moment.
I don't think it's a good reason to balance things. I believe, if you want to discuss something, you should stick to solutions which will lead to something useful, not lulz. So I wonder why you haven't edited your proposal yet with something related to utility, with moderators indulgence of course. Because, you know, you can't grant skill with 5 sec extremely valuable utility, maximum is some kind of debuff.
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